I have a very good friend with an amazing gsd. He is about a year and a half old, intact male, if it matters, he is from czech lines, being trained in personal protection.


my friend was invited to a bbq, and asked to bring the dog, it was on a farm, the host said the dog could run around, etc.

she gets there, there are 2 other dogs, one she(and her dog) knew, one strange pittie.

after the pittie started t-ing off on her dog, and trying to hump the other dog, she told the owners that it was not ok, etc. They put the pit inside.

everything else went fine.

as she was packing up to leave, someone let the pit out of the house, and it charged straight at her dog. Her dog was in a heel at her side, the pit came up from behind, and grabbed her dog.

they were pulled apart real fast, little damage was done to either dog, my friend left.

She herself loves bully breeds, and doesn't want her dog to be afraid or aggressive towards bullies though.

She has asked if she could have her dog(in a muzzle, just in case) around sonny, and maybe later on, capone, so that her dog can be used to being around friendly bullies.

just wanting to run this idea by you guys. See if you have other suggestions, etc.

Dogs rely on their smell first, sight to confirm what their nose tells them. Your (Or someone else's) pit isn't going to smell different because it's a bully, it's going to smell different because it's a different dog. The OWNER is the one who will have the issue/ prejudice towards bullies. My advice is for her to do what she needs for herself to get past it, then move on. The dog already has. At this point, the less of a deal that is made of it, the better.

Basically, what I'm saying is don't change anything in the way the dog is handled until you are given a reason to. You have no idea if the dog is now dog aggressive, because it hasn't shown signs. So don't treat it as though it's now a different dog. If it does show signs of becoming fearful or aggressive, handle them accordingly and quickly by correcting the inappropriate behavior. Treating the dog like it's about to explode aggressively at any moment will result in a dog that is ready to explode aggressively at any moment. If the dog does respond aggressively towards another dog, go back to leadership stuff - nothing is free, tether or crate 100% etc. IMHO re-creating the same environment when the dog was attacked in the first place, but now taking away the only way the dog can defend itself will only increase the likelihood of the dog becoming fearful of other dogs, and destroying the bond with the handler. Act as if nothing happened until given a reason to act differently.

 Quote: cameron feathers

Dogs rely on their smell first, sight to confirm what their nose tells them. Your (Or someone else's) pit isn't going to smell different because it's a bully, it's going to smell different because it's a different dog.

While this is true (about the scent), dogs CAN become "racist". My (55 & 65 lb) dogs would fence fight with my next door neighbor's two 100 lb GSDs. My male is very dog reactive and the two GSDs next door weren't very friendly either. My female is a submissive dog who did join in the barking but never started it.

I never realized the impact it was having on her until we joined a training class. She is afraid of/doesn't like German Shepherds! She reacts to EVERY GSD we see, even if they are smaller and in a different "territory". My trainer confirmed she has seen dogs that have been attacked suddenly have issues with just that one breed.

Otherwise I agree - Mallory's friend's dog may not even generalize - not all dogs do. He may not have issues with other dogs at all. Try and make other interactions positive for this dog and the owner needs to focus on HERSELF.

After my male was attacked, I realized that I had more of a problem than the dog did, but the dog was reading my "anxious vibes." I posted a thread on that and got some great responses which worked well. Good luck!

 Quote: angela burrell

 Quote: cameron feathers

Dogs rely on their smell first, sight to confirm what their nose tells them. Your (Or someone else's) pit isn't going to smell different because it's a bully, it's going to smell different because it's a different dog.

While this is true (about the scent), dogs CAN become "racist".

I'll second that. My male was attacked by a Husky a year ago. (He was on leash, the Husky was not. That dog was kicked and smacked and whacked, but still got to my boy who was anxiously waiting his turn at the dog. That dog's owner actually called animal control on us and the 15 witnesses saved our butts.) Now when he sees one, he goes into instant alert mode. It has taken a lot of work to get him to calm down and focus on me if one is within 100 yards.

To work on his issues with Husky dogs, we would go to PetSuperStores on a Saturday, sit on the bench outside (15 feet from the entrance) and await the dogs. When one comes, any breed, we would play focus games and easy OB stuff. Eventually a Husky would come by, and we would move a little farther away and keep that focus on me. If the owner of ANY dog mine appeared to have an issue with was willing, I would have them stand near by for a sec and continue my games and OB.

This has helped him to understand that no dogs are there for him to play with, I am, and that includes those evil Huskies too! They are still a little tougher, but he is able to relax now and be obediant.

Mal, I would not let the GSD and your dog interact. No reason to in my mind. Just have them both on lead and and working at focus on the respective handlers. If there is no issue, then it is just training with distractions. If there is, it is still training with distraction, just a bigger one!

Oh, and a muzzle on one dog and not the other is a very bad idea. The muzzled dog can not defend its self from an unexpected attack, and/or a muzzled dog can still attack a submissive dog and do some psychological damage. I just say keep them from contact and focusing on the handlers.

JMO

 Quote: jessicakromer

 Quote: angela burrell

 Quote: cameron feathers

Dogs rely on their smell first, sight to confirm what their nose tells them. Your (Or someone else's) pit isn't going to smell different because it's a bully, it's going to smell different because it's a different dog.

While this is true (about the scent), dogs CAN become "racist".

I'll second that. My male was attacked by a Husky a year ago. (He was on leash, the Husky was not. That dog was kicked and smacked and whacked, but still got to my boy who was anxiously waiting his turn at the dog.

I am not saying it's not possible, but I will say that I have yet to see a single case where this was entirely true. In over 100 + aggressive dogs that I have worked with in the past year or so, when the dog was handled by someone else there was no issue towards the "problem" breed walking past, etc. I think the dogs are just htat good at picking up the nervous energy from the human who DOES remember what the breed was that attacked.
I guess anything is possible, but IMHO it is more likely the dog is just feeding off of nervous energy from the owner.
As I originally said, though, don't start trying to "desensitize" before you even know if there is a problem. Act as though nothing has happened, and deal with the dog you have TODAY. If the dog acts fearful towards other dogs, be strong, be firm, be fair. Address what comes up. If nothing comes up, awesome.

Edited by Cameron Feathers (05/28/2008 03:09 PM)
Edit reason: spelling

I do have to mention that in my case, I had no idea my dog had issues with German Shepherds. The first time it happened, I was acquainted with the owner and had previously met her dog, so I had a positive vibe if anything; was saying hi to the owner, and apologizing for my dog, wondering why she was growling and hackling. It wasn't until the 3rd time we met a GSD that I put two and two together.

In my second case with my male, yes that was true, he was picking up on my negative vibe but it was with pretty much all loose dogs, not breed specific. When my friend walked him he did much better.

Anyway, I definitely agree with not creating or "fixing" a problem if there isn't one. Likely, there isn't. And I didn't like the muzzle idea, either. Good luck!

well, i know Bart HATES yellow labs and goldens. I have no problem with these breeds-he does.


She wanted to muzzle her dog, because she didnt want him to be able to bite sonny, incase something happened.

sonny is still 8months old and 25lbs, and loves other dogs, so we don't have to worry about sonny attacking her dog, and him being defenseless.

and she really does love bullies, she has no negative feelings towards them.

this attack just happened saturday. Her dog hasnt come in contact with another bully since then, so she doesn't know what he will do. She is just wanting to be safe, i think, and make sure her dog gets around enough friendly bullies soon to make sure he doesn't think all bullies will attack him.

like i said, she doesn't know what he will do. She just called me, and asked if i thought he would start to be aggressive with pits, and i said i didn't know, it depended alot on what she did, and his nerves.

so she wants to see, using a bully that she knows won't be aggressive to him.

Well, muzzling that dog will more likely create more anxiety. If you absolutely must test the theory of whether the dog is now a "racist", then why not spend a day together with both dogs on leash, but not allowed to interact with one another? Such as, make a picnic or whatever, go to the lake/beach...
It IS possible to have two dogs around one antoher and NOT allow them to play/sniff noses etc. I really don't see a reason to set up a situation where you wait and see what happens. NO matter what way you describe it, you are waiting for either an attack or for him to be fine. That means there will be anxiety on the human part, which will trickle down to the dog. You may even create a problem where one did not previously exist.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think more often the human unintentionally marks the aggressive behavior in the dog and continues to mark it in the future.
Let's say for example:
The dog is introduced to another dog, who happens to respond aggressively. Maybe the dog is posturing, and the owners talking don't notice it. The dog barks, growls, etc. The handler has a momentary confusion/fear/embarrassment as the two behave aggressively, or one behaves aggressively. That emotion is translated as nervousness or fear by the dog.
Next time the handler sees another large dog of the same breed subconsciously they are filing away the similarities of the last incident, without even realizing it. Usually it takes something happening several times (three is average) for the human mind to pick up a pattern. But subconsciously, they are already thinking and responding accordingly from the first time it happens. We do a lot of things without realizing we are doing it, from the way we brush our teeth to the way we orient our bodies to face toward those we love to the way we respond to our dogs. Dogs are EXPERTS at those subtleties. As much as you may think that the dog is just behaving that way... you may be surprised to find that the dog is merely responding to subtle differences in the way that you are behaving. Sometimes it takes a third person observing our behavior to pick up what is happening.
Sometimes I will even have one of my clients video their walk with the dog (using a third person) so that I can show them on the tv how their posture effects the dogs' behavior. This is usually done when I am unable to get through to the client that their dog is not "crazy" or "unpredictable" or "untrainable"