I placed this here as to get more comments from the trainers and handlers that have experience of the different drives in the working dogs and choosing them for programs. This can apply to LE dogs, SAR dogs and any other odor detection based discipline program.

Got into a semi-debate today while working dogs.

Situation is as follows:

Dog #1 (2.5 yrs) that "hunts" a ball for over 5 minutes, still looking when given a little direction and has not stopped at all. This dog did NOT see where the ball was thrown as he was held away from the search area. This dog carries a ball EVERYWHERE and would rather chase a ball than pee first thing out of a crate or kennel in the am. May be more "hard headed" than dog #2 but will do ANYTHING for a ball or tug. \
This dog is small (53 lbs) and is a Lab.

OR

Dog #2 (1.5 yrs) that hunted for 45 seconds and then went back to person for approximately 15 seconds but went back to "hunting" when told to do so. This dog knew the person had the ball but did not see where it was thrown. This dog will possess a ball but drop it to investigate things, do his business ect.... and may or may not pick it back up. This dog also will focus on a ball when interacting with the person throwing it but does not necassarily bring it back right away.

This dog is larger (60 to 63lbs) also a Lab.

Both dogs were asked to "go find", and are just being started in odor detection based disciplines (one bird hunting and one cadaver). They are both intact males.

DEBATE: Which dog would you pick and why? AND, is there a difference when asking the dog to go search for bird scent as opposed to human remains scent or narcs?

Personally, I would take dog #1 as I like HIGH possession of the toy as I feel it makes it "easier" to train with but obedience may be a challenge. Although, I agree that dog #2 could be built up in the possession department with some hard work but obedience would be easier.
I also feel that odor detection is odor detection whether it be bird, narcs, HRD or any other specific scent you want the dog to search for and indicate on, although there are subtle differences in the training process, you need a dog that has the "will" and "want" to hunt until the "reward" is found.

(I posted this over on another forum as well and am interested to see what opinions are out there)

Hey Carol,

I have no experience in SAR/Narc/Cadaver etc so couldn't give you any info specifically pertaining to those. However, I do believe that scent is scent, and that a dog doesn't care what he is trained to detect. I could be wrong.

I would pick dog #1. Like you, I like a dog with a high level of possessiveness. The dogs that never stop trying. I would imagine this being a requirement for any type of SAR work.

I also like a dogs natural willingness to return to the handler with the ball (although not necessarily giving it up to the handler easily due to possessiveness). But at least having the desire to continue the game with the handler without running off playing keep-away or lying down somewhere to chew the string on the ball. Which is kinda funny, seeing Tiko and Yasko are litter mates, and one will always return the toy to me to play tug, and the others instinct is always to walk away and chew the string unless I call him over to me :p Guess which dog I prefer doing OB with????

Hard headedness... well, that's all about training. If the handler isn't capable of handling the dog then there is an issue. But the dog is not untrainable, and the drive is high.

DEBATE: Which dog would you pick and why? AND, is there a difference when asking the dog to go search for bird scent as opposed to human remains scent or narcs?

If I've learned nothing else in the years I've been working with dogs it's: work smarter, not harder. I'd pick number one. Dog number 2, with work, could probably make it. But why bother. Hardheaded doesn't bother me. If a trainer sticks with the principles and the dog has the drive, it can be done.

DFrost

Dog #1 hands down . As a matter of fact It's been harder and harder to find dogs like this . I never thought I'd see this problem .

Used to be especially with Labs, that you could find tons of these . Last year I had to travel a days drive to a very reputable dog vendor since we couldn't find any good dog candidates in our area . Our head trainer and I , looked through his entire stock with no luck . Ok dogs but just a little lacking in the drive we were looking for.

I have been far removed from hunting Labs for about a decade . I've had guys tell me they are now being bred for a softer mouth thus taking away there possesiveness and some hunt drive. Not sure if this is true . Can't imagine any smart hunter/breeder thinking this could be a good thing . But, I sure have been suprised be the many soft , low drive Labs I've seen.

The best detector candidate I've seen in the past few years was a young Pit Bull .

 Quote:

Personally, I would take dog #1 as I like HIGH possession of the toy as I feel it makes it "easier" to train with but obedience may be a challenge. Although, I agree that dog #2 could be built up in the possession department with some hard work but obedience would be easier.
I also feel that odor detection is odor detection whether it be bird, narcs, HRD or any other specific scent you want the dog to search for and indicate on, although there are subtle differences in the training process, you need a dog that has the "will" and "want" to hunt until the "reward" is found.

I totally agree on the type of dog you need for detection work. But,I do believe some types of odor detection is more difficult for some dogs (bomb and Mercury detection for example). But , that makes Dog #1 an even better candidate for this work .

 Quote: Nancy Jocoy

Why is there even a debate --- just curious?

Ohhhh, it's a trainer vs. trainer preference thing. You know how that goes.....

I bought dog #1. LOL

My GSD will pee, without releasing her ball. She'll pause halfway through a recall, squat with the ball in her mouth, and then come in. If she needs a drink while she has her ball, she'll drop it IN the water bowl, get her drink, and then pick the ball up.

I like slightly stubborn dogs. They may be a little hardheaded, BUT they also aren't quitters.

 Quote: Carol Boche

 Quote: Nancy Jocoy

Why is there even a debate --- just curious?

Ohhhh, it's a trainer vs. trainer preference thing. You know how that goes.....

Just remember, the third one is wrong. ha ha

DFrost

 Quote: David C.Frost

 Quote: Carol Boche

 Quote: Nancy Jocoy

Why is there even a debate --- just curious?

Ohhhh, it's a trainer vs. trainer preference thing. You know how that goes.....

Just remember, the third one is wrong. ha ha

DFrost

Kind of like Dentists huh???

Carol,
For me there is not enough information to make the decision.
I would have to run a few tests to determine which one I would take.

 Quote: carol boche

I placed this here as to get more comments from the trainers and handlers that have experience of the different drives in the working dogs and choosing them for programs. This can apply to LE dogs, SAR dogs and any other odor detection based discipline program.

Got into a semi-debate today while working dogs.

Situation is as follows:

Dog #1 (2.5 yrs) that "hunts" a ball for over 5 minutes, still looking when given a little direction and has not stopped at all. This dog did NOT see where the ball was thrown as he was held away from the search area. This dog carries a ball EVERYWHERE and would rather chase a ball than pee first thing out of a crate or kennel in the am. May be more "hard headed" than dog #2 but will do ANYTHING for a ball or tug. \
This dog is small (53 lbs) and is a Lab.

OR

Dog #2 (1.5 yrs) that hunted for 45 seconds and then went back to person for approximately 15 seconds but went back to "hunting" when told to do so. This dog knew the person had the ball but did not see where it was thrown. This dog will possess a ball but drop it to investigate things, do his business ect.... and may or may not pick it back up. This dog also will focus on a ball when interacting with the person throwing it but does not necassarily bring it back right away.

This dog is larger (60 to 63lbs) also a Lab.

Both dogs were asked to "go find", and are just being started in odor detection based disciplines (one bird hunting and one cadaver). They are both intact males.

DEBATE: Which dog would you pick and why? AND, is there a difference when asking the dog to go search for bird scent as opposed to human remains scent or narcs?

Personally, I would take dog #1 as I like HIGH possession of the toy as I feel it makes it "easier" to train with but obedience may be a challenge. Although, I agree that dog #2 could be built up in the possession department with some hard work but obedience would be easier.
I also feel that odor detection is odor detection whether it be bird, narcs, HRD or any other specific scent you want the dog to search for and indicate on, although there are subtle differences in the training process, you need a dog that has the "will" and "want" to hunt until the "reward" is found.

(I posted this over on another forum as well and am interested to see what opinions are out there)