Okay... I have been posting my foster dogs in local Internet classifieds for the past several months.

One thing that I see all the time is people advertising their "stud dogs" or should I say stud puppies. Also breeders/showers that should know better breeding very young animals.

Two examples: a breeder who has been breeding for many years in a certain breed. Recently she has begun showing one of her (female) dogs, and I don't know about any shows before that. One of her puppy customers has championed (and maybe grand championed) their dog. Her stud dog's foster home has championed the male. I believe some of her dogs are working dogs but many are pets too.

On another forum I'm a member of where the post show wins, litter announcements etc. I've noticed she has started using her stud dog starting at age 11 months. At that age the dog was well on his way in his show career, and being the responsible breeder the dog had CERFed and PENNhip'ed (OFA not being able to be done on a puppy). As far as I know he has been bred to at least 3 females so far, all 3 were over the age of 2 that I know of.

2nd example. Someone on the classifieds posted Rottweiler pups for sale, or was taking deposits on the litter. The mother of the pups is 5 years old but the father is 15 months (and still growing, according to the ad).

I emailed the person and politely asked if she'd had the dogs certified (OFA) (and questioned whether she was sure the stud was old enough to breed), mentioned hip dysplasia etc.

She wrote back and said the dogs were being sold as pets only. She went on to say that she had "seen in person the mom and dad of the female, and the mom and dad of the male" and the papers for the grandfather of the male, indicating to me that the breeding dogs are not papered. And anyway, the male has already sired FIVE LITTERS, the oldest of which were 7 months old "and doing just fine" (meaning their health/hips, I think) - (do the math - her male would have been just 8 months old when the pups were born). Her *vet* told her that when the male is ready he's ready - and therefore it's fine to breed him.

She never did say the dogs had been health cleared in any way. I said no thanks I don't want one of your puppies and she was like, that's fine I already have deposits on 4 pups and believe you me I will sell the rest.

So now on to my question.

Is it standard practise among breeders, class and backyard, to use a male dog under the age of two? At what age should a male dog be used for breeding? I always thought he should be over 2 years old (And OFA'd at least).

My neighbor also breeds toy dogs, she breed them on every heat and her one female had a puppy at 1 year old. But she keeps them in the house with her and cares for them well.

In my mind a good breeder would not only have papered/pedigreed and OFA'd dogs they would also have a title or two on them, and/or use them for working. Am I old-school or what here?

Someone set me straight - I'm not a breeder and don't really know any.

Unfortunately, there are a gazillion breeders out there that breed dogs for profit, and profit only. They just don't give a shit. It's really sad and it disgusts me. And another unfortunate aspect of all of this, is that the AKC will register a litter with the dam being as young as 8 months and the sire as young as 7 months. So these people get away with getting papers on their dogs.

Here's the thing... I think that many (or I should say, I hope that many) of them do give a sh!t, but are just completely clueless. My neighbor for example, loves her little dogs, but probably has no idea that she shouldn't be breeding her dog on every heat. Maybe she does and is just in it for the money.. but maybe not.

I am trying to get less clueless. (no, i'm not planning on breeding). I understand that, even if one does not OFA dogs (perhaps, yorkies/chihuahuas etc don't need OFAs? or in the case of using Pennhip) the FEMALE should be at LEAST two years old to ensure her body is mature enough to handle being pregnant, whelping a litter and raising pups. But what about the sire? What is the justification that a male dog should be a certain age?

You should ask your neighbor how she would feel if she got pregnant every 9 months. Don't think I'd be happy in that situation. I feel so bad for those dogs that have to go through that their whole lives.

I don't breed either, but I would guess that at least 2 years for the sire is a good age as well, even if an OFA isn't necessary, but that is just a personal preference.

To me the justification for not breeding a young male would not dissuade those breeding the dogs for profit or, to be honest, pet breeders in general. At 8, 10, or 12 months you don’t know if the dog is of quality to breed or not yet. The temperament, final body type, working ability and sadly, genetic predisposition to disease is not yet known.

We have seen here on many occasions were hyper pups calmed, calm pup became a super driven dog; late bloomers and dogs that looked great as a pup, then never lived up to potential. Most working ability is really not a sure thing until a dog matures, regardless of work performed. Also many genetic medical issues don’t pop up right away (think cancers, eye disease, severe allergies, and dysplasia) and to have bred these dogs early is going to destroy a breed slowly.

Again, those who are breeding “just ‘cause” couldn’t care less anyway. They often breed dogs that are so outside standard that they are almost only recognizable as a cross of that breed but say, “It has PAPERS!”

All of the same arguments could be made for a female, but on top of that you have all of the physical and psychological stuff for her to deal with on top of all of that. It is far worse in my book to breed a female early than a male, but neither one is truly excusable in my book.

 Quote: angela burrell

I am trying to get less clueless. (no, i'm not planning on breeding). I understand that, even if one does not OFA dogs (perhaps, yorkies/chihuahuas etc don't need OFAs? or in the case of using Pennhip) the FEMALE should be at LEAST two years old to ensure her body is mature enough to handle being pregnant, whelping a litter and raising pups. But what about the sire? What is the justification that a male dog should be a certain age?

Angela,

Good topic. I'm not a breeder either (looking forward to some more experienced input than mine), but I'm having trouble understanding how you can both give a rats bum about your breeding program AND not understand some very basic things about healthy canine reproduction (ie, be clueless). In my book, caring intensely about something goes hand in hand with doing it RIGHT, and when it comes to animals, it's all about making sure they stay healthy, happy and stress free. It was my understanding that breeding females before 2 years of age is not cool among respectable breeders - though they may breed right AT 2. I've read more about breeders of my chosen breed though, so there may be a difference from large breeds down to toy breeds, physiologically...

In terms of the stud, my *guess* is that the reason to wait until 2 y/o, or older, is purely up to the type of breeder. Waiting would obviously allow time to verify certain health testing (like OFA), gain championships, or accumulate other working titles - all of which prove the MATURE WORTH of the sire, physically & mentally, plus they take a lot of effort and money on the part of the breeder. We all know many breeds can take up to 3 and 4 years to achieve their adult physique and personality - why would you want to breed a dog before you knew if he was worth breeding by assessing all of those points?? Most likely, just to make puppies = $. Once a male becomes sexually mature and is actually able to reproduce (which could indeed be as young as 7 months) I'm guessing his semen quality and genetic information don't change much until he starts really getting old (as in past his prime). So in terms of breeding babies, he's perfectly ABLE to contribute, it's just about whether he SHOULD. And that's where the "responsible" part of breeding comes in... I would argue it's also where the ENJOYMENT of breeding resides! Sure all puppies are cute, but when you've invested blood, sweat and tears proving your breeding stock, then carefully chosen a sire and dam, then whelped a gorgeous litter... THEN you have the satisfaction of possibly actually IMPROVING your beloved breed. Anyone who's breeding immature dogs on every heat cycle, I don't care how they argue it, is NOT improving, or even doing justice to their breed.

I think registries could do a LOT more to help improve breeding practices too - accepting a 7 month old stud for register is just too young. And allowing a dog to achieve a CH under 2 is also, IMO, too young. I believe in many European countries a dog can't be championed until it's 2...

Just my 2 cents here...
~Natalya

 Quote: Angela Burrell

She never did say the dogs had been health cleared in any way. I said no thanks I don't want one of your puppies and she was like, that's fine I already have deposits on 4 pups and believe you me I will sell the rest.

So now on to my question.

Is it standard practise among breeders, class and backyard, to use a male dog under the age of two? At what age should a male dog be used for breeding? I always thought he should be over 2 years old (And OFA'd at least).

My neighbor also breeds toy dogs, she breed them on every heat and her one female had a puppy at 1 year old. But she keeps them in the house with her and cares for them well.

In my mind a good breeder would not only have papered/pedigreed and OFA'd dogs they would also have a title or two on them, and/or use them for working. Am I old-school or what here?

Someone set me straight - I'm not a breeder and don't really know any.

In short, buyer beware. The more educated the consumer, the less likely these idiots will continue to be able to sell dogs. Unfortunately, many people rely on what the breeder tells them in regards to care and husbandry, b/c they ASSUME that these people know what they are doing. Like the woman said, she's got people lined up to buys these pups, regardless of how she goes about breeding.

Breeding too much and at too young of an age is a fastrack to oblivion in dog breeding, especially in medium to large breeds that develop slower. You have no empirical evidence as to the health, temperament or longevity of the parents of the litter. Personally, I'd like a pup out of an older male and a 3-5 year old bitch...who is out of healthy, long-lived parents. That's even before I look at health tests and performance titles.

Doing a 'test' litter with a younger male (at least 18-24 months) isn't all bad, to see what he may produce, but you cannot even discuss this type of technique with these BYBs b/c they have no concept of evaluating litters, beyond how much money its going to make them.

Question and commet.
From what i have seen most breeders will wait tell after two years. Even for chis the lady I got myne chi from breed her girl once every 2 years and retires them after the age of 6
So she get 3 litters out of each female. She has a waiting list also. but she said she would never over breed her females.
So that is all I know her chis are full chi no miniture or tiny or te cup or anything.
She has 2 female right now 3 males so there is no inbreeding also.

There is a nieghbor whos dog got pregnant muut but small dogs my friend ask me if she should get one.
The mom is 6 months old the dad unknown age to me.
Should she get a puppy does the age of the mother matter after the puppys are born and weened

Yikes; I wish there was some kind of license requirement to breed dogs .

There is no way a breeder can know nearly enough about a dog to breed before the age of two, males OR females. Even if the dog is finished in the ring it doesn't mean it meets all of the health requirements. And breeding a litter of "just pets" doesn't justify skimping on health testing. Just because the dog is bred to be a pet doesn't mean it deserves the serious, hereditary health problems that result from carelessness.

Well, I run with toy breeders and do see some very "interesting" stuff be passed off as reputable breeders. I know several who breed their bitches on their second to third heat so at about 18 months old as there is a belief that if you do so it widens up the bitch which helps in confirmation titles.

I also know a few who start their studs young because they think it helps behavior in the show ring. Helps them act doggyier or some such nonsense.

I also know several who breed their girls back to back because they think it's easier on the dog. Keep in mind that in toy breeders a large litter is 4 - 6 pups.

Really when you get down to it though it's old wives tales, greed, and shortsightedness in action. I find that very few toy breeders breed for anything other than looks. Very few train (alot believe that obedience training "ruins" confirmation training) I know of none other than myself who have eliminated a dog from a potential breeding program due to temperment.