I am a very new user of the boards here, so bear with me if this question has come up before. I tried to search it and came up with nothing.
I came across an ad from The Abady Dog/Cat feed company about the dangers of certain ingredients in dog food. The offenders are
Beet Pulp, Tomato Pomace, Alfalfa, Peas, beans, oats, garlic,yucca and potatoes. It states that not only are they used to ad massive fiberous material to make the dogs stools artifically firm, while also being toxic to the animal because of the chemical components, Saponins and phaseolins.I have been wanting to get into going raw, so recently,I have just switched my 7 month old GSD, from kibble to the Nature"s Variety raw frozen food and she is adapting so well.
I am just starting to convert to Raw, and until I get all the info I need, I will buy this frozen raw food because it is convienent and appears to be a very good food.
The frozen chicken formula does have alfalfa in it, which contains saponins.
Mr. Abady maintains that these chemicals are responisble for
bloat as well as torsion,most allergies and can even be fatal to dogs. Of course, this got my attention.
Please, can anyone educate me?

Some dogs are allergic to alfalfa. If I had a dog with food allergies, I would stop giving alfalfa, if I had been giving it.

Saponins were blamed for years for frothy bloat in ruminants (cud-chewers, such as cows) that were pastured on or otherwise fed fresh alfalfa. (Note that frothy bloat is not the kind that dogs get; they get gassy bloat, which ruminants can get too but which is not involved in the saponin question.)

Even that's in question now (and has been for some years) because low-saponin cultivars of alfalfa were shown to cause bloat like high-saponin cultivars. Saponins fell off the center of the target. So now I've read that ruminant frothy bloat may be triggered by cytoplastmic protein fractions in some feed (including alfalfa). (Please note that this is not an area I know much about.)

Anyway, this is pretty far afield from dogs and raw feeding, but it illustrates where the saponins-bloat connection originated, I think.

I haven't seen anything convincing about small amounts of alfalfa (or small amounts of any other ingredient in a raw diet) triggering bloat, with or without torsion, in canids.

If I were convinced, I'd just feed raw with no alfalfa.

If anyone has authoritative citations about saponins, etc., to give me, that'd be great. (I mean, apart from the eternal Abady flame wars. )

Hey Joyce, when it comes to diet your going to find tons of conflicting information when it comes to commercial foods. Kibble or raw. The Natures Variety is something I've used but I would suggest you take a look at the Leerburg diet and just copy it.

Thank you Connie. I am learning so much about feeding dogs, and I have to say what an eye opener it has been. I had some questions about Abady foods and still do, so instead discovered Nature's Variety. It is the perfect thing for now, until I get the books that Ed/Cindy recommends on raw feeding. It's a place to start anyway.

Incidentally: Huge pleasant surprise!
Just two days ago, started my 7 month old GSD on it and she has been able to completely change over 'cold turkey as she was snubbing her Halo kibble (smart dog huh?)
Tonight, I was in amazement as she only had one firm and compact stool with hardly any smell. Quite the difference from the huge pile of very smelly poo! I have been adding probiotic powder, one capsule to help her transition to the raw diet.
I couldn't be happier so far. I am looking forward to reading the books and learning what so many already know.
Thanks a TON to Leerburg for educating me!!!
What a huge, and valuable website!
Thanks again Connie!
Joyce

Hi Joyce,

I fed the Nature's Variety raw patties to my dog from 8 weeks to about 8/9 months until I had the confidence and knowledge to switch to all raw.

I was pleased with the NV product and would use it again if I needed a pre-made raw patty for travel. etc.

Hopefully Connie has clarified the saponin/phaseolin question for you.

Katie

 Quote: joyce salazar

. . . Tonight, I was in amazement as she only had one firm and compact stool with hardly any smell. . .

Uh, yeah, that's the unmentioned darkside of raw feeding. You may lose some friends due to your new found interest in dog poop.
Don't worry, though, your dog appreciates it.

Mike

BTW, you can search this forum for "abady" and read last year's interesting discussion here about him and his product.

 Quote: katie o'connor

Hopefully Connie has clarified the saponin/phaseolin question for you.

Katie

Yeah, heaven knows THAT'S way up there on the raw-feeding list of important considerations.

I would be fine with NV raw patties too, if for some reason I was unable to feed regular home-prepared raw.

("Home-prepared" seems so fancy, but "home-thrown-in-the-dish" was missing a certain je ne sais quois. )

LOL! Thanks Mike.
Just read the Sports Illustrated article. Sheesh
Wild article. His website definately seems odd.????
I am gearing up and learning how to make my own mix of raw foods.
Until I learn all I need to do, the NV will do just fine.
I just have to figure out how much to feed as she is still a growing girl.

The NV website has a feeding guide --

Nature's Variety Feeding Guide

As with feeding any food I'd judge amounts by how my dog acts and looks -- I like to see a hint of the ribs at rest -- and adjust meals up or down accordingly.

Katie

Edited by Katie O'Connor (06/29/2008 10:38 PM)
Edit reason: spelling

Regarding alfalfa and yucca, of that list, I give both For me, Alfalfa is just a small source for fiber, vitamins, and minerals. The Yucca is for joint health and even further reduces the smell of urine and feces, though on a raw diet it is definitely much better than kibble to begin with. I give yucca to my cats and my ferrets also.

Never had any problems feeding either alfalfa powder or yucca