Dave,

I didn't say that the dog could be relied on to protect. I said it MAY be able to be trained, with a lot of time and effort. It MAY be able to protect in some circumstances and situations. I think we are in agreement, the purpose the dog is intended for is going to be the deciding factor for the dog. Most people don't need a dog that will really bite. They need a sharp dog, willing to stand it's ground with a barrier in front of it that will prevent someone from coming in easily. That dog will most likely prevent the problem. The bad guy will, more often than not, go someplace else rather than take the chance that the dog will really bite. Out of fear or confidence, for the bad guy a bite is a bite. Why should they chance it? In reality, how common is home invasion? I live in the 6th largest city in the country, we have 2-3 home invasions a year, in a city of around 2 1/2 million in the Metropolitan area. You have a better chance of being struck by lightning.

With a lot of time and training there are ways to get some limited work arounds on this problem. Most experienced trainers and people that train seriously, want to get a dog done for the purpose that they want it. They won't invest 6 years in a dog that will never trial or work the street. For the rest of us the training is the goal, not the end product.

Ok... I'm with you now, Richard. The APPEARANCE of protection will work the vast majority of the time and actual physical confrontations ARE rare for law-abiding citizens.

I use an informal scale to measure nerves:

Weak Nerve = perceives threat in common daily activity (paper sack blowing in wind, door slams etc.)

Mediocre Nerve = perceives threat in new environments / exposure to new things

Strong Nerve = perceives threat when direct physical harm is possible (attack etc.)

In my experience, most GSD's have mediocre nerves, about 25% weak and 5% strong.

It seems that the type of dog you are referring to that MAY protect in SOME situations would fall into the mediocre nerve category using this scale.

I think we are basically on the same page.... In my opinion, a truly weak nerved dog that runs from a paper sack that blows across the back yard will NEVER stand and protect.

There is a place in FL, I visitied back at the end of March that trains week nerved dogs for protection.

I watched the second to last training session with these $3000 personal protection dogs.

One dog was pinned in the corner, had its penis out...the trainer stated look he is so excited to be doing this he has an erection. The poor 'clients' bought into it. When the dog finally bit, it was extremely chewy. This was the first time this do had bit( remember he was going home, second to last lesson). Again, the trainer states how strong a dog this was, look what it would have done to the bad guy...all those bites, he just wants to chew them up.

So I guess my point is maybe a weak nerved dog can be trasined for protection...the protection of this trainers pocket.

I don't know much (if anything) about PT, but for God's sake if these people could fork out $3000 to have the dog trained, why didn't they buy the right kind of dog in the first place? Especially if that's what they wanted. Sure, everybody makes mistakes, especially if you're just starting out in dogs. And it's very easy to buy into someone else's line of BS if you don't know any better. But PT dogs is a serious business, especially in terms of liability. I would think that if you want to go that route you would do some serious research.

Caniche, Sadly this happens a lot in PT dogs. Breeder sells dog, dog turns out to be chit, breeder takes dog back into training and "trains" it to bite by the only means possible, or the only way he knows, people are oblivious to what they have.

No one wants to admit their dog is crap.

If I had a nickle for everytime I have been told "my dog would be great in protection" simply because the dog is nervy/cage shy/fear biter I would be rich. People don't understand that IS NOT GOOD. Unfortunately there are people out there just in this aspect to make money.

These dogs are status symbols to some people. For them money is not an issue, and they just want to get the dog a write a check. They are not involved in training the dog, and as long as GATOR will bite the dude at the training center they are impressed.

I was so proud, my mom was here visiting not too long ago, and I showed her some of my bite pics... First thing she asked is; What happens when the sleeve isn't there?

There are people that buy titled SchH 3 dogs and think they are automatically great Personal Protection dogs, sadly this just isn't the case.

at what point in a dog's life can one tell a dog is a weak nerved dog? By that I mean as they grow up they go through phases of fear periods and such. With my 14 month GSD is has been a roller coster ride. At times I though he was weak nerved because he would become a spook to things that in the past he had approached boldly. Then things would go back to normal. Had i posted the incidents here I would have many replies saying he is a weak nerved dog, in fact some of my earlier post that is exactly the consensus given. I was concerned to the point that i contacted the breeder which is also a koremeister and a schutzhund judge. The breeder reassured me the pup was only going through a phase and would go through many of them before it was an adult. The training director almost told me verbatim the same thing. The important thing I was told was not to reinforce the behavior by telling him it is ok whenever he spooks or brings his hackles up in new situation but rather ignore him and move on. I realize weak nerves is genetic but from what I am understanding from them is that even a strong nerved dog can be messed up if they are not handled properly while they go through these phases. What I find reassuring is that the breeder knows exactly when my pup will be going into these phases and back out. Just as predicted we are now back out of one of these phases and nothing I do now spooks him. I introduced him to escalators and an elevator today. The escalator he approached cautiously and sniffed the steps as they moved up. when i got on the escalator he followed me as it they were just stairs. In the elevator we rode without anyone in it and later with the elevator being crowded. he was a litle worried the first time the elevator moved but in a few minutes settled down just fine. as for the crowd of people , he was a perfect gentleman and gently took wiffs of everyones scent especially the ladies. Several weeks ago it would have been a very different reation I am sure. Though the term weak nerved is used often here, my wife would say he was being a coward about things. This GSD has been nothing like any other I have ever raised

Sure, there are periods in development where the dog is unsure. I'm sure that with some dogs, this unsureness isn't due to a lack of sure nerves.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have found that a lot of times that strong dogs/pups are being fearful or "weak" they are really just confused. There is a difference, and that subtle difference is often mistaken for weakness or fear. I don't think that the bad ass dogs ever really show weakness and fear/aviodance problems (to the degree that I would call them weak nerved). Mostly they are confused and a little unsure with a new situation. As soon as they figure out what the hell is going on, its back to business.

In these situations you, like Phil said, ignore the action and move on. Don't make the situation worse by flipping out.

Dave and Richard, I will let you know Kevin's assessment of my dog in mid June. We will be attending his seminar.

I naively wanted to get a dog that would do PP because of working GSD bloodlines!!Boy have I learned alot in the last 2 years!!And boy do I have a long way to go <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> LOL.

I feel a dog should be prepared to defend their owner if the situation calls for it because you NEVER know when the situation may arise.

Years ago, in The Bronx, I had a good friend who had the most versatile red Dobe( show lines)(950$ dog 20 yrs ago!!) I have ever seen. He would go trail riding (horse) off leash, stay in the car in valet parking lots w/ windows open for hours( at night ),calmly walk the NYC city streets off leash and stop at the curb to wait for permission to cross, hang out at our feet in bars etc etc.

One night my friend and I were in a public park when we were approached by 2 men obviously on some kind of drugs. The dog,Buzz, began to growl at them.As they got closer, we warned them to leave to no avail. By now my friend was holding the dog back as he bared his fangs and barked viciously.

At this point they jumped towards us and my friend released Buzz, who lunged at them and jumped up to bite the guy.( absolutely no protection training ever)The guy then hit the dog hard, and Buzz got scared and ran towards some parked cars nearby.

Well,my friend got so outraged that his beloved dog had been struck that he then attacked the guy. they rolled around for a minute, while I retieved Buzz and reaasured him!

The 2 then shook hands as the attacker said, " ok man, you're alright." and walked off!!!

The way I see it now, I feel the dogs instincts and nerve were in the right place, but he was unprepared for what to do if HE was attacked, and thereby fled.

I would want my dog to know how to respond to a counter attack, and I would think that that comes with training. So that the confidence was there.Am I correct?

P.S.- Buzz was not adversely affected by his experience. He was his usual stable self.

Jeanette,

I am glad. With out a lot of experience these are tough evaluations at best. I have someone else asses my own dogs because I am as kennel blind as anybody.

In answer to your question about the Dobe, my best guess is that even with some training it would have run. That is part of the problem with all this, you never really know until the situation comes up. You have a much better idea based on the training and the reactions in training, but until it happens for real it is a crap shoot.