I just picked up my new schutzhund prospect last Tuesday and I started working on the foundation work for obedience. My question is for those of you that have schutzhund trained dogs, do you have informal and formal commands? If you use formal and informal commands, for example lay down vs. platz, what do you teach first. I was planning on teaching the informal commands first to imprint the motion and then teach formal commands to show the correct body posture and speed.

Thats a good question George. For no real reason I taught formal commands first and then just kind of started using casual commands. He knows the difference, but maybe I just got lucky.

Good question, George. I'll be interested in seeing the answers, since I also just got a Mondio prospect (hopefully) last week. He'll be 10 weeks on Sunday, and as I'm preparing to train him in Mondio (we're going to the Michael Ellis seminar later this month) everything I do has me thinking "should I do it this way or this way or this way? Will it screw him up in Mondio if I do it this way or another way?" Everything from commands, to getting him to release an item he has in his mouth (he has no qualms about taking any size item or just about any substance in his mouth, which I want to encourage/maintain, but if he has something I need to have him release, is there another command (other than "out") that I should use, or will it screw him up a bit if I have him releasing things now?). I mean, you have to be able to live with him, so he should be trained to obey you, whether it's a leave it command, a release (out) command, or something else, but I get so worried that what I teach him now will go against something I need to teach him for Mondio (I'm new to Mondio, but have shown in Obedience, Herding, Rally, Conformation, etc....).

Karin in MN
and new little Belgian Sheepdog wonder pup Koby

Yes, I use English commands casually at home, and French/German for working. I don't think it matters which you train first, but that the dog knows the context. WHen training in the training hall or field the dog gets put in the right position through physical manipulation, or later on corrected for crooked sits/downs, they begin to learn the difference between Platz and a casual "down" at home where they can lay sideways. For a young pup I don't need any obedience at home very often.

To Karin, I do use out, I just try to trade them for another object. Such as if the pup steals a shoe, I go up to them and say "out" while waving their toy or tug. This way "out" is not a negative, but a positive.

I've never really "taught" informal commands. They're informal, right?
Danke's informal commands consist of "Kennel", "Lay Down", "Off", "Come 'ere", "Leave it", "Go check on your boy" and "Go ahead".

"Kennel" and "Off", she basically learned through compulsion, in a sense. Every time she was put into her crate, she received the command. Eventually she put two and two together.
Everytime she got pushed off the furniture, she was told "Off", and she figured it out.
"Leave it" was taught by giving the command when I removed the offending item from her mouth.

"Lay down", "Come 'ere", "Go check on your boy" and "Go ahead" were taught basically through marker training.
Every time she offered those behaviors on her own, I gave her the proper name for the action, and a treat, until she put two and two together.

Her formal commands are taught through luring, shaping and marking- so even the way she learned them is different.
They are also in German, not that she knows the difference, but I do, and it prevents my 4-year-old who fancies himself Cesar Milan, from giving her formal commands.

I use fairly regimented commands (even casual ones) with my dogs. If I use another language, I tend to "think" more about what I am saying to my dog. I used to have a formal command and a casual command, but without fail (my own ignorance) I'd ruin my informal recall or settle commands by using them thoughtlessly.

What I do now is train with a set of formal commands (each strictly thought out, regimented, and rewarded/corrected as per trial prep) which are used ONLY when I'm focusing on the dog 100% and also I have a few separate "casual" commands that are still in a different language. Formal commands consist of those needed for FR, Mondio, and PSA. Informal commands consist of a just as thoroughly thought out, but less precise recall to heel (which covers off loose leash walking as well) and a down-stay. These were the two most easily corrupted commands if I kept them in english... By me AND by others!

I've just found that by keeping all important commands (even informal ones) in a separate language, I think more about what I am doing each time I ask the dog to do something. Things like mindless chatter, telling the dog to kennel up, get out of the kitchen, or move away from in front of the T.V. are in english.

Hi George,
Yes I have two sets. The german ques for the field and practice sessions and then my 'house ques'. FOr example, 'Piss Off' means get away from me or out of the kitchen - it works :-) Heel is just loose leash walking but not focused on me. Down is just hang out as opposed to Platz where she has to be focused on me.