In the Basic Dog Obedience DVD, all the commands seem to use a "luring" technique with food. I'm speaking specifically of watching Cindy train the SIT and DOWN with Dama.

However, on Ed's podcast on Marker Training, Ed seems to advocate using a shaping technique, citing that "it's the dog's job to figure out what task that we're training today." He also states that one of the greatest achievements of marker training is training the dog to problem-solve, and luring exercises rob the dog of the opportunity to solve the problem.

Seems to me that using a shaping technique would take a lot longer, although Ed says in the podcast that luring takes longer. I haven't seen any good examples in any of the Leerburg videos that I have of training by shaping. They all seem to be luring.

Also, on the Basic Dog Obedience DVD, Ed starts out the recall training by directing his dog to "COME". This also seems contrary to the marker training podcast where he says "you don't name the exercise until you love it."

Can anyone clear this up for me? What exactly does shaping training look like?

Thanks.
v/r
Kurt

Shaping is when you allow the dog to offer a behavior, and mark what you like. Usually you mark every step in the right direction, for example: If you want to teach your dog to sit using a shaping technique, first mark looking at the ceiling, when that's consistent, mark bending the hind legs or lowering the butt, etc. It sounds like it takes forever, but if a dog is used to training this way they'll offer a lot of behaviors to mark and it moves FAST. Dogs love it, it's all positive, and the behaviors learned this way really tend to 'stick' as it's a collaborative effort.

A lure helps to direct the dog into a position in a very clear way, and then that position is marked and rewarded. Also a very positive way to learn. I use shaping primarily and lure when things just aren't progressing or aren't moving in the right directions.

Once a behavior is offered regularly, then you name it, which can usually be understood with one quick training session.

As a sidenote, a dog trained with a lot of corrections rarely will offer any behaviors for shaping. I use corrections, but they are few and far between, and rarely have anything to do with missing an obedience cue. My dog LOVES obedience and rarely misses a cue:-)

Great description Kristel. I just have one question - if you're shaping, as opposed to luring, and (lets take your example for training the sit) you want the dog to look at the ceiling as step one, would gesturing or catching the dog's attention above their head in order for them to look up be considered luring? Or is it only if you use a piece of food for the lure? OR, are you suggesting that you just sit patiently until the dog randomly looks up, and then you can mark and reward? Seems like there might be some blurry lines between these two techniques, when used for certain goals.

Here's a question: I've been teaching Oscar how to put a paw over his nose, like dog's in movies do when they're embarrassed for their owners or just "can't look" One method would be for me to watch Oscar like a hawk and make sure I always caught him rubbing his nose on his paw (itchy nose) so that I could mark and reward a behavior that he was initiating on his own - but he only rubs his nose like this maybe once every couple of days, so that could take a while. The other option was to put a little piece of tape on his nose in a training session so that he was "lured" into rubbing his nose with his paw. I chose the later because I'm impatient , but now I'm not clear if that would actually be "luring", or whether it's just a tricky way to use shaping...??

Either way, we're still working on the the cover the nose and HOLD that pose, but he's doing great at waving and actively pawing next to his nose on command. As a slight aside, anyone have any ideas about how to get him to hold his paw still over his nose?

~Natalya

I would say that if your dog isn't offering anything on it's own, a lure or something clever like the tape would be a good way to go. I'm not sure if it would be considered a tricky way to shape or not, but it sounds like a pretty smart way to go about it. I think the two methods aren't mutually exclusive and you can switch back and forth pretty easily depending on what you need. Like maybe you use food to teach your dog to put his but on the ground for 'sit', but use shaping to make it faster, straighter, more frequent, of longer duration, etc. After a dog is used to going the 'shaping' route though, usually a lure isn't necessary. My dog sees me get out his treats and a clicker (I use a clicker in the beginning for most things because I'm a motormouth and don't want my poor dog to have to decipher what's for him and what isn't:-)and I have his full attention. If I don't give him something specific to do, he makes sure to offer plenty of behaviors to mark and reward.

Sometimes it's a pretty safe bet that a lure or something else will be needed though. I recently had a problem with my fellow squeaking loudly when other dogs were around (even though he kept working and stayed focused on me) and knew he would not offer silence on his own. Cindy suggested I use the e-collar to interrupt the squeak, then mark the silence. It worked great. Since then I've taught him "speak" and "shh" so there's a little more control over it generally.

To increase the duration, as soon as Oscar is super proficient with being embarrassed (I bet that is SO cute!)hesitate slightly before marking and rewarding, then m&r immediately the next time, and maybe the next, then hesitate a little longer, etc. like you would with 'stay'. Would that work?

Kristel,

Thanks, that's very helpful. I think I'm putting this together. I think if I remember from Ed's podcast that it's the placement of the reward that is the last 'missing piece' to the shaping training.

My next question is: Do I wait to train the next exercise until I've named the previous one? How many exercises can I "shape" at one time before I need to start naming them?

Thanks.
kjs

Wanted to point out something that was mentioned this weekend at the seminar. There were a few dogs that used the shaping method, and the problem that showed up was the dog would start rapid fire offering behaviors when it wasn't the center of attention, such as when Michael was explaining something. Kind of a "oh, this isn't what you want" thing, even though it was exactly what you wanted, just not constantly saying "yes, keep staying". The dog seems to learn that if you are not "paying" the dog for the behavior that second, and the next, and the next, then you must want something else from them.

 Quote: natalya zahn

Here's a question: I've been teaching Oscar how to put a paw over his nose, like dog's in movies do when they're embarrassed for their owners or just "can't look"

This is a fun one to do. Using a luring technique, you put a treat in your hand, have the dog down, then slide your hand under the dogs' paw/leg, enticing him to bring his nose there. Then you mark, reward (no command yet) next you ask the dog to bring the nose further, and lift the leg up higher to allow the head to go further under.
Once you have the behavior exactly the way that you want it to be, and you KNOW the dog will offer the behavior right, you say the command, then lure AFTER saying it, marking and then treating for the behavior. Do enough reps exactly like this (command, then lure, then mark, then treat) and make each step on YOUR part separate from the one before (as in, don't mark and treat at the same time, lure and command at the same time or any combination. Each must be separate) Keep pausing longer after the command, and you will see the dog doing the action that comes next on it's own.
Hope that makes sense

OK, you've convinced me! I'm going to try to teach that one this week. Nice method, Cameron.
And, Natalya, what will be your command?

(and Kurt, sorry for the hi-jack!)

 Quote: cameron feathers

This is a fun one to do. Using a luring technique, you put a treat in your hand, have the dog down, then slide your hand under the dogs' paw/leg, enticing him to bring his nose there. Then you mark, reward (no command yet) next you ask the dog to bring the nose further, and lift the leg up higher to allow the head to go further under.

Oooo! That's a whole new way to go about it, and I bet it would be a lot more clear to Oscar what I want that way (my method worked this far, but it's falling short because it's very hard to "shape" or "lure" the dog into HOLDING a paw on his nose - THIS way the dog's NOSE is doing the moving more than the paw, and he's much more keen on what his nose is doing if there's food involved :grin. Thanks Cameron - I'm going to give this a try! Will the eventual trick translate to while he's sitting or standing up? Or will that be an extension of the training?

Lynne, my command will be "sorry", so I can link it to something conversational like "Oscar are you SORRY?"... I'm sure there's an industry standard here that I don't know about - I'm not following any formal trick guide, and I couldn't think of anything else!

Yes, I'm also SORRY {me holding my paw over my nose} for taking this thread a little off course... though I think we're still in related territory - thanks guys!

~Natalya

 Quote: cameron feathers

Wanted to point out something that was mentioned this weekend at the seminar. There were a few dogs that used the shaping method, and the problem that showed up was the dog would start rapid fire offering behaviors when it wasn't the center of attention, such as when Michael was explaining something. Kind of a "oh, this isn't what you want" thing, even though it was exactly what you wanted, just not constantly saying "yes, keep staying". The dog seems to learn that if you are not "paying" the dog for the behavior that second, and the next, and the next, then you must want something else from them.

Could this be remedied with further training and better timing with rewards?

I can only wish that my training problems were my dog offering too many behaviors.