i'm going to speak to our new trainer who's helping me with her aggression issues about this, but thought i'd ask here as well.

teagan downs great inside. she always downs from a sit, but i worry about her hips, so anyways - i don't have a problem getting her to do this inside.

i've always had trouble getting her to down while we are outside. i'd say it was her hips but she'll do it inside.

especially if people are around, or coming towards us - she refuses, to get her into a down i have to physically put her into it but lifting up her front feet. the trainers i went to w/luc and then fired taught me that one way to force/correct a dog into a down was to step on the leash close to the collar. that worked with luc. teagan will just remain in an extremely awkward position, but she won't down.

she'll sit and heel for me, no problem. i know a lot of our problems is me, but i can't figure this one out. i'm not a problem for sitting or heeling outside - but for the down?

she's watchful around strangers - could that be impacting why she refuses to down? how do i make myself stronger so that she'll down?

note as well using treats or toys is not possible outside as she is muzzled.

thanks for any help

Something I learned at the seminar...
a dogs' butt does the opposite of it's head. Most of the times I have seen "luring" it's putting the treat under the dogs' chin, luring them forward and down into the treat (the handler drawing back towards themselves). The problem with this is it's moving the dog forward, and causing a natural distraction for the dog because of the forward motion.
So the method that was demonstrated with a green dog (they were re-training the positions) was to bring the treat up in front of the nose, then backward/down (away from the handler), causing the dog to move into the down position following the treat, while keeping it's head up.
The stand was taught with the treat in front of the nose, then moving to under the chin and back, causing the back legs to be kicked back to allow the dog to stand fluidly.
The dog it was being taught to was responding with a lot of enthusiasm, and a lot of animation, where it was responding casually and uninterested before. It seemed to be physically easier for the dog to do, because it kept the way a dogs' body actually moves in mind, rather then the but be forced up to follow the treat (because the head goes down), then sinking down eventually, making the mark/reward a little slower as well. Plus, having the dog moving BACK seems to help mentally, as the dog is not moving FORWARD to lie down.
Does that make sense?

If the dog downs willingly and consistantly inside the house, it's probably a distraction issue, more than anything.
I'd wager there's probably a pinch of dominance and uneasiness about downing around new/strange people- but I'd say most of it is just that it's time to move into the correction phase of training for that command.

One question I do have, is since treats and toys aren't possible outside, how are you rewarding the dog?

It sounds like the dog may be refusing to perform without a payoff- which means it's time to move to corrections.

 Quote: alyssa myracle

I'd wager there's probably a pinch of dominance and uneasiness about downing around new/strange people-

I have an adopted dog who is uneasy about "down" outside.

This is with just the usual passersby on the sidewalk, 30 feet away, visible but with a fence between us.

I'm about to take the show into a secluded section of the yard and moving it verrrrrry slowly towards the "public" part.

Edit: I just caught the muzzle part. Can you do what I am doing in a safe-but-still-outside area where the dog can be unmuzzled? I think I would.

 Quote: alyssa myracle

It sounds like the dog may be refusing to perform without a payoff- which means it's time to move to corrections.

After seeing what I saw at the seminar, I would disagree here. If taking off the muzzle prohibits rewarding the dog, then I would train where the muzzle wasn't necessary so that I COULD reward the dog.
I had some major wakeup calls at this seminar, and the biggest one was the lack of need for corrections with a motivated dog. See, when we correct for the dog offering the wrong behavior, we aren't making them understand we want something different, we are punishing them for trying. Eventually, the dog STOPS trying and waits for us to show them what we want, so that they avoid what causes them to be corrected.
The more you correct them for not doing anything (because they are waiting to know what you DO want) the more they shut down, and don't want to work with us. Eventually, there is no motivation at all to do the work, because it is not fun.
The other thing is that just because the dog knows what down means in the house doesn;t mean that it knows what down means outside the house. Dogs don't generalize. They don't sit there and say "well, this command means this here so it must mean the same thing out here too" It is confusing for them, then they get corrected for not doing it, so they shut down more.
When training, and except for rank issues (to include aggression) corrections really aren't necessary. I know that goes a little against the learning, correction, distraction, proofing thing, but think about this: If there is a marker for the dog when they do the action RIGHT, then shouldn't there be a marker for when they do it WRONG that doesn't involve shutting them down? As long as the dog is still motivated and actively trying to pay attention and work for the reward, they shouldn't be getting corrected. So if Teagan is sitting there looking at you while you are trying to get him to down, saying something like "nope" or whatever to mark that he isn't going to get rewarded because he hasn't done the command yet is like telling the dog to try again.
It's also important that the marker for the wrong behavior is different than a correction word. There is no need (as long as the dog is still engaged) to scold or correct. Even high level dogs make mistakes (there were some of the highest trained dogs at the seminar who accidentally recalled to the wrong person - not their handler at all!) so if you set the training environment up for the dog to succeed - even when they get it wrong. Withholding the reward and saying "nope" builds frustration for the dog to keep trying.
If motivation is an issue, then maybe go back to building drive and getting the dog interested in working with you. There is nothing wrong with paying the dog often for good work, it helps to keep it more fun.
One other thing is making sure to keep the marker separate from the reward. When you say yes and treat at the same time, the dog associates the MOVEMENT as the reward, not the sound. So saying yes (or clicking) then treating allows the dog to KNOW that they are about to get paid, that you are happy with what they did, and they don't start to "hold out" for seeing the treat, or aligning themselves on the treat bag.

Good points, Cameron.

thanks everyone, that's helpful.

connie, teagan is similar, though we don't always have a fence between us. she's a very aware dog, and while the people don't seem to scare her - she watches them, ears forward, usually leaning forward a bit - it's like she can't let go of the alertness. mind you, most people don't want to get too close to her - we were doing a long sit at the corner today with me at the end of the leash and some woman crossed the street. she intimated people as a german shepherd, especially since she watches them - she use to hard stare people all the time, i don't feel she really does that so much anymore - but now she's a muzzled german shepherd watching them, so most people cross away to avoid her.

cameron, that's a really cool way to do the down - i'm going to use it w/neb.

she actually downs without treats or toys well in the house, with using a vocal reward, which is what i try to do outside. so i don't think it's a refusal to perform without a payoff.

i find the one difference in luc and teagan that way is that luc wants my approval, and is really strongly motivated by that. i don't find teagan is - i'm sure my approval is nice and all, but it doesn't seem to motivate her the way it does luc. the strongest motivator for her isn't treats but a toy like a ball or a cuz (but we use cuzes very rarely b/c they are SO high value for her she has a history of being possessive (growling, and the first bite in the second week i had her, which is ancient history at this point, but still i prefer to use a kong or ball instead) over them.

part of the problem is that i rent, and the yard isn't fenced in. so after what happened, i made the decision not only to always keep her on leash, which i'd already been doing, but to always have her muzzled outside, as a back-up. maybe what i could do is go out w/her at 5 am unmuzzled and work with her in the backyard, getting her comfortable then, then adding in the muzzle at other times of day, and then working the down out of the yard and onto our walks (which are still very short, due to my leg, but i'm starting to be able to do again).

it probably is distractions. we've just never had trouble translating other commands, but down has been problematic.

ETA, cameron, that's really helpful. i don't have a marker for 'nope, try again', just an 'eeeehhhh!' when she does something she's not supposed to. i think i'm going to have to work on ways to build her ability to do this under distraction while staying safe.

You can help with the muzzle stigma, by having a "Working Dog" vest on.

isn't that bad though, since she's not a working dog? though i guess 'working dog' is kind of a vague term.

it doesn't seem to bother her - though on the otherhand, i don't want her to start getting the idea that she does intimidate people, just b/c of how she is, and she is smart, and reads people, so that is an issue a bit.

i feel bad b/c she's such a sweet dog, really - and most people don't see that at all. they don't see the girl i see when i come home, who's just a big mushball of love. i know she has other sides to her, not as mushy, but it does make people pre-judge her, i guess, but - i don't want any accidents to happen again.

Jennifer, you are more than capable of making the most balanced decision here, and I know that you will make the right one.
The early morning training sounds like a great idea, best of both worlds.
If she really likes the toy better, is there a way to incorporate play into OB work more, but safely? If she is able to see you as fun to play with, rather than "that b*tch who takes my toy" (joke) I think it would help.
If you can get to the point where the toy is no fun unless you are holding the other end of it, the dog will WANT to engage with you in a positve way. I'm in no means making light of it, you have a difficult situation to deal with, and it is REALLY hard to balance between everything involved. I know with everything ELSE you have to additionally worry about (namely safety) that it can be even MORE difficult.