In that *very* extended thread yesterday I asked Michael Hubert how he would assess a new client's dog for dominance or aggression before turning it loose in his day-care facility. He responded in a PM - I find his answer quite revealing so I'm going to share it.


*MOD NOTE*

Do you have the poster's permission to share it on the board?

I have the text and will save it to re-post if you do.

(PMs are Private Messages.)

Edited by Connie Sutherland (08/01/2008 12:29 PM)
Edit reason: mod edit

deleted by Cameron, pending permission

Edited by Cameron Feathers (08/01/2008 12:26 PM)
Edit reason: mod involvemnt

that's interesting about the skittish dogs. when i adopted luc end of june 07, he'd been in a foster home for 6 weeks and for the 3 years before that he was in a shelter, and he wasn't quite 4 years old. he had bite scars on his muzzle, and was terrified of strange dogs. (you've never been an embarrassed german shepherd owner until you encounter an elderly 4lb miniature poodle out on a walk, have your dog try to run away, and have the poodle's owner ask increduously 'is your dog SCARED of my dog?')

anyways - i took him to the dog park every day for a week, week and a half (on a long lead). not quite the same thing, but everytime we'd got there, dogs would come over, sniff him, sometimes in a pack, sometimes they'd leave, sometimes they'd bother him. i figured he just needed to learn other dogs weren't a threat - throw him into it, so to speak - and he'd be fine. but he wasn't.

it was only once smart people told me i needed to step up that i started to handle all dog interactions, i was always between him and other dogs, etc, etc, that he started to relax around strange dogs and gain some confidence.

i guess it depends on the dog and how/why they're skittish? in my experience, which i admit is limited, leaving a dog scared of other dogs with a bunch of dogs just didn't work.

ETA: oh! should i delete this?

Hold on guys - I just e-mailed Michael to ask his permission. Sorry, Connie.

Connie,

Michael says yes.

..................................................
Here ya go:

QUOTE: sorry to get back to you like this , not very good with a computer. we have many clients that say that, we have them come down to our place, usually try to do it without as many dogs, sometimes we close the outside door, and keep a few in. we have a 4 foot wall when you walk in, i notice the reaction of the dog when they enter, most of the time the new dogs go right up to the wall and sniff the other dogs, in that case we let them right in, and about 9 out of 10 come and go nuts ,not knowing which dog to play with first. a small % are skittish, those that have never been socilized, the first reaction is fear, we bring them in, some dogs come over and want to sniff, on occasion the new dog will snap or growl, which is only natural due to the fact the dog is scared,and we keep an eye on the dogs around them note thier posture and hackles etc., usually last for about 10 seconds and the dogs go about there bussiness, the new skittish dog usually goes to the corner or just sits there,we dont push the dogs to do things they dont want to do. you see the initial reaction of the dog is, im going to get hurt,once they realize they lived thru the situation, they calm down get a sense for there surroundings and evenually builds up their confidence and start to play with the other dogs, we do not accept aggressive dogs or unnuetered dogs. agressive for obviouse reasons, but i have trained some aggressive dogs that before coulndt come but now do. as for my dogs its hard to explain unless you see it, my dogs are trained the majority of dogs that come to the daycare are not, some dont even know there name,yup its true, they are the pack leaders and do not let any other dog show aggression or dominace, its not fair to the other dogs. unless you see it, you wont believe it. its hard to explain. but people love it, our motto is "drop em off tired pick em up tired" please let me know if you understand , dont understand thanks END from Michael Hubert


Edited by Connie Sutherland (08/01/2008 12:44 PM)
Edit reason: add text

wow i really should re read these things for typos

 Quote: michael hubert

wow i really should re read these things for typos

Michael,
It was not too bad. I guess the only thing I would request is capitalization and paragraphs.

Makes it easier to read, especially when there are several descriptions and/or points trying to be made in one post.

that was the nicest thing ever said to me on this post. thank you very much

Michael, I hope that things end up turning out well for you here. There is definitely a lot you can learn, and a TON of information here.

Some of the things that you are doing at your facility are not very safe, and you have been very lucky thus far. I'm not looking for a fight here at ALL, and I don't want to debate over it. The reason I am saying this is because I have been there. Many of us have.

I'm hoping that you will be able to use this forum for what it is intended - to learn and be educated, and in turn you can help with education as well - provided the advice is sound and safe, as well as advice that will better the owner and dog.

Allowing the interaction the way you do is very risky. I understand and BELIEVE you that you have had no problems. I don't think anyone would continue to do things that way once they have found out first hand why it is a *really* bad idea. The thing is, eventually, you WILL have problems, and if you continue to do it that way, you may even have a dog die. That can shut down a business real quick.

Training PPD dogs is another thing to be concerned about. See, when you don't have the experience to back it up, well, you kind of become a target for breeders/trainers to "get rid of" dogs that they themselves know better than to use. You may think you are getting a great dog because of bloodlines and parent accomplishments, but in fact you are getting a dog that an experienced trainer knows is a nervy dog that will never make the grade. A dog that is not good for nerve reasons can be very dangerous, and a HUGE liablity. If someone were to be killed as a result, you could actually be brought up on charges and do some jail time for it. Not to mention the personal guilt you would undoubtedly have.
I'm not saying don't do it, by all means. In fact, I hope that you DO go out, join a club (I know there are some good ones near you, I used to live up there) and get some first hand training in the field, if that is something you would enjoy. Learn to be a decoy, learn the sport. Many great trainers start out that way.

There is nothing wrong with not knowing something, everyone was there at some point. But to come on a well structured, well established forum and try to sell yourself as something you are not is not taken very well.

We actually are a great group of people, who take dog training very seriously. Many of us have met in person at seminars, and some of us actually train together on a regular basis. I hope that things turn around here, and hopefully you will be able to learn from us, and we may be able to learn from you as well.

Just please don't start picking fights or insulting people. That is generally not tolerated at all. In fact, since I have joined, what happened yesterday has NEVER happened at ALL.

Maybe that is from good mods, and maybe because things have just been quiet for awhile. I don't know. But I do know that just reading, maybe asking a few questions, getting to know us as we get to know you seems to be the best way to go. Jumping on and blasting people as being "wrong" is not.

Have you decoyed before, Michael?