I apologize in advance for what I think will be a long post. I want to provide as much info as possible, so those who choose to respond will have as much knowledge of my situation as possible. Thank you for your indulgence.

Cleo, my Presa Canario, is now 19 weeks old. I plan to try to do ScH and PP work with her, if (and only if) she has the right temperament. I want her to be, first and foremost, a companion. If she can do both, great. If not, I am not willing to sacrifice her being an excellent companion/house dog. I take her with me just about everywhere.

She is very bright, has excellent (almost too strong) food drive and has an intermittently good prey drive (prey drive weak when she is sleepy or tired). She generally has what I call an "eagerness to please" which often times is stronger than her prey drive. She is still very much a puppy and sleeps much of the day.

She has learned "sit" "down" "drop it (out)" "come" "stay" "stand" and she sits and waits for me to go first at every door, gate, and stairway. Per advice from members of this forum and Ed's DVDs, I taught her this with no physical corrections.

She is teething and is entering her "alligator on crack" stage now. She bites my clothes (I have 8 pairs of shorts with holes around the bottom) and nips hands a little bit. She also jumps up and puts her front paws on the kitchen counter and island. She is quite large (over 50 lbs) and tall (her neck and head are well above the counter when she stands). She sometimes (but farily rarely) becomes stubborn, usually when sleepy.

I would also like to start teaching her to walk next to me without forging ahead or bolting off. In our early am training sessions, she does this quite well. When we go out into the yard where there are lizards, birds, blowing leaves, outside sounds, etc., she is too distracted to stay with me.

My question is: When can/should I start using physical corrections on her? When I do start with corrections, how should I do it? She is fairly hard. Should I start with a puppy prong collar or just a nylon choker?

I recall Mike saying that, especially with a working dog, you need to let a puppy be a puppy and gain the confidence to work independently. When is the cutoff for this?

I have Ed's DVDs "Working Puppy" "Puppy 8 Weeks" "Building Drive and Focus" and "Basic OB."

I have raised many perfectly obedient dogs, but never a ScH or PP dog. I don't want to do anything that might limit my girl's potential. I know there are many experts here and would greatly appreciate if you shared some of your expertise with this ScH/PP novice.

Mahalo.

Sounds like an obnoxious, mouthy puppy.


My favorite kind!


If she is doing something dangerous or disrespectful, I'd give her scruff a good shake. If she's just doing something obnoxious or annoying, it's easier to just redirect or remove.
A lot of the behavior you are describing is typical puppy hijinks, and in reality, while annoying as hell, not a bad thing.

You want a confident and inquisitive dog. It's a lot easier to just have her mellow in the crate, when you can't control her and prevent counter surfing, etc.

19 weeks? Yeah, she's teething. Lots of chew toys and all the standard stuff. To a certain extent, it's just grin and bear it, where the mouthiness is concerned.

As far as the out-doors distraction, this is something you want to work on now. You can't expect TOO much froma pup at this age, but it's nice to lay a foundation, and teach her early on, that paying attention to dad, pays bigger dividends than paying attention to everything else.

Cheese and hotdogs are your best friend.
Cut up a bunch into bite-sized little nibbles. Go sit on the couch and encourage Cleo to come sit in front of you.
Once she's hanging out with you, try to get her to look at your face. When she does, mark and spit the treat.
She'll pick up pretty quick.

After a session or two, you can move the game outside, even to on-leash. Typically, once a puppy learns that daddy is a treat machine, they tend to stick pretty close on the leash (most of the time )

 Quote: alyssa myracle

Cheese and hotdogs are your best friend.

So are bits of cooked chicken breast.

One of my dogs is an adopted senior who needs the training food to fit into his overall raw diet (no salt, etc.).

I know that cooked chicken breast is not raw food, but it makes it very easy to handle (and spit), and it smells very good to the dog.

I just count it as part of his muscle meat (not as RMBs).

P.S. The pleasure and the fun of marker training are so evident when you have a green (or badly "trained") adult or senior. It's so much fun to see the short training sessions turn into confidence-builders and bonding enhancers. It's great to see a worried senior turn into an eager dog who loves training.


Edit: And back to Eric's thread ....

Oh, DISCLAIMER: Your neighbors will think you're nuts.

Not sure if that's an issue in your situation. Perhaps your neighbors don't live close enough, or can't see into your yard.

Or perhaps, as in my case, they already know you are nuts.


I try to find particularly distracting times to play this "game", with my (holy crap she's going to be 6 months next week) puppy. Like when Retard Neighbor Supreme walks his 4 little yappy dogs, off leash, down our street, with his 6 sons in tow; which then sets off Psycho Neighbor's GSD and Dachshund, and Retard Neighbor Jr.'s GSD and PB to barking and growling.

And she never takes her eyes of my face.

I wish I could say it's love, but she really likes cheese.

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

Oh, DISCLAIMER: Your neighbors will think you're nuts.

Be sure to do raw-feeding poop-inspections in full-on daylight too.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Be sure to do raw-feeding poop-inspections in full-on daylight too.

It helps if you have a spouse or significant other to shout your findings to. Much more better that way.

My husband is kind enough to stand on the porch and inquire about the dog's poo, so that I may be afforded the opportunity to yell that is is firm, tapered and white, for all of my neighbors to appreciate.

The neighbors already know I'm nuts. Don't know if its the poop inspections, not letting them pet Cleo, or me cheering like she just won the lottery when she comes to me or goes after a ball in the pool.

Thanks for the tips. I will try the high reward treat method in the yard. I've got the teething thing down....tons of chew toys, frozen hand towel and such.

At what age, or more appropriately, at what developmental stage should I start correcting, given my plans for Cleo?

Thanks again.

Once you know for sure she understands a command, and is willfully disobeying you, light corrections are okay IMO at any age.


6 months is a good rule of thumb to start adding corrections, if you are 110% positive that the dog knows what you are asking for, and willfully disobeying (not just having a puppy moment).

Again, though, the best rule is to set the dog up so you never have to give it a correction in the first place. If your dog has a "place" command, do that, instead of correcting for counter surfing or being mouthy.

Eric,
Mike J. Schoonbrod gave what I thought was a good guide for that very question on another thread. I didn't ask him if it was okay to revive it (I'll take my chances) but where it is:
IME pups raised with corrections, or even excessive control without corrections, get their drive, freedom and personality squashed, become very handler dependant seeking permission for everything, and aren't given the opportunity to grow up and mature the way they would if they were just left to be puppies. A dog that becomes too handler dependant will constantly be seeking permission from the handler, which isn't a good thing for a working dog. A dog should be capable of working independently and confidently. Pups are still pups, they are sensitive and impressionable no matter how hard or dominant they may grow up to be.

There are always exceptions, but there is no need for corrections even for a pet. Raising a puppy can be done entirely without, if you have the patience and follow the correct methods. Most pet owners are constantly instructing their dogs, don't do this, don't do that, don't jump on that, don't jump up on people, don't nip at the kids, don't chew on power cords, don't chew the furniture, don't chew the baseboards, don't scratch at the door, don't bark, don't counter surf, don't get on the bed, bla bla bla. It's enough to drive anyone crazy, especially a young pup that is constantly getting told "no" for following his instincts. So what happens later when you want the dog to learn to bite? Or want the dog to be able to do a building search? Suddenly the dog keeps looking to his handler asking "wait... are you sure i'm allowed to bite this? because you know, i'm not allowed to do anything else and i've always been told not to put my teeth on people....."

There are always exceptions, but why reinvent the wheel? Enough people have screwed up enough pups to figure this stuff out so others don't have to.

_________________________
Thank Mike S.

Edited by randy allen (08/08/2008 06:07 PM)
Edit reason: Get Mikes name right

Thanks Guys,

Randy,

That's exactly the quote I was thinking about when I mentioned Mike in my OP. It makes sense, but I'm having difficulty implementing the advice. Alyssa gave a good suggestion to place or crate her when she acts up. Problem is, she always "acts up" She is a puppy after all. Other than crating, what to do when she counter surfs or nips? Should I just let her do that for another 7 months or so? Do I just take her paws off the counter again and again without telling her no? I certainly don't want to kill or weaken her drive or ability to work (hence the OP). Sorry if I'm being thick, but I really don't know if I should do nothing or something short of a correction or a "no" for such behavior.