Hi Everyone -

OK, so my puppy is coming along nicely with his bite work, however, I have 4 small kids and they love to run around. My dog (9 month old rott) sees them as prey items and runs with them and jumps on them and even mouths them (no biting - just mouthing). I recently moved to training with an e-collar and am determined to train him to leave the kids alone. To this end, I had all the kids run around outside, while I watched, when he chased them, and was about to mouth or jump, I gave him a stim from the collar. He responded well. My question is, is this a reasonable training method, or should I be approaching this problem all together differently. I realize that I should have addressed this issue earlier, but through my own misunderstandings, I simply kept them apart as much as possible, this is now and untenable arrangement. Thanks in advance for any help.

-Al

 Quote: Al Lewis

My question is, is this a reasonable training method, or should I be approaching this problem all together differently.

First, if you're doubting it, it's probably because you know it isn't the best approach.

Don't let the kids run around the dog.

He can't help his prey drive, and correcting him for it at this age is only going to dampen his enthusiasm for prey work.

Al,
What happens if you correct the dog via collar and the dog decides that the kid is the source of the discomfort and becomes aggressive towards the child?
You're treading on *very* dangerous ground here, and something very bad can happen, believe me.

I think the children should work the dog's obedience, thats just for anyone with a dog and children.
If the dog is mouthing the kids, I would rather go up and correct the dog myself directly, than use an e-collar. I do not think correcting a 9 month old dog for mouthing the kids will ruin him as a protection prospect, but you don't want to be doing that all the time, it's not fair. I would teach him children are not prey objects, but also try to stop the running around and chasing if it's getting the dog so worked up.

 Quote: Will Rambeau

Al,
What happens if you correct the dog via collar and the dog decides that the kid is the source of the discomfort and becomes aggressive towards the child?
You're treading on *very* dangerous ground here, and something very bad can happen, believe me.

Good point Will.
It is correcting a dog also for their current mindset, when he is chasing. Can affect dog's confidence. The dog has to understand why he is being corrected and make that connection.

To me this is mostly a management case . The dog should be kennelled , on leash , etc. while the kids are out playing . I know it would be nice to have the dog out with the family and friends but you take on certain responsiblities when you have a PPD .

I have 3 young kids , 10 , 9 and 7 . With both my PSD's the dog was kennelled or crated while the kids were out playing . Time spent bonding with the dogs was monitored by me . This mostly consisted of them petting him giving him treats while I watched . They also threw a kong for him while I held the dog . They were taught not to run around , hug , pull hair or ears of dog while they were with him , etc..

There are responsibilies to having such dogs because of the potential harm they could cause to people . You could try several training techniques to try to be able to get your dog to be able to be out with the kids . But what you are basically doing is gambling on the fact that your training is going to work 100% of the time , which we all know is impossible . Is your children's safety worth taking that gamble ?

As for using the e-collar to stim the dog while chasing them . I agree with Will . I have seen dogs when stimmed by the e-collar in that type of stituation associate the pain coming from whatever they are chasing . Some dogs may turn away from that but others may attack what they think is the source of their pain . Your dog is coming into maturity and may only get stronger and more confident and may sometime descide he's not going to turn away but take out the cause of his pain .

 Quote: Jim Nash

I have 3 young kids , 10 , 9 and 7 . With both my PSD's the dog was kennelled or crated while the kids were out playing . Time spent bonding with the dogs was monitored by me . This mostly consisted of them petting him giving him treats while I watched .

I agree one hundred percent.
My daughter, who is 7, is never alone with the dogs. They are either in their crates, outside in their fenced area, or if with me they are on lead if she is present.

She is developing great bonds with each dog.

I do it with them together and her ---- as well as individual and her.

As for the e-collar, you don't want the dog to think the children are responsible for the action of the e-collar.
I personally, wouldnt use it.



Good Luck!

 Quote: jim nash

To me this is mostly a management case . The dog should be kennelled , on leash , etc. while the kids are out playing . I know it would be nice to have the dog out with the family and friends but you take on certain responsiblities when you have a PPD .

I have 3 young kids , 10 , 9 and 7 . With both my PSD's the dog was kennelled or crated while the kids were out playing . Time spent bonding with the dogs was monitored by me . This mostly consisted of them petting him giving him treats while I watched . They also threw a kong for him while I held the dog . They were taught not to run around , hug , pull hair or ears of dog while they were with him , etc..

I agree with the above quote and actions. HAving a dog of that caliber and those displays of behaviour, IMO needs to be taught to be around kids and ignore them unless directed by you to "say hi" or whatever. Since you said you have small kids, I do not agree that having them work the dog in OB is a good choice.

IMO, this is best done with keeping his focus on you when the kids are out and a lot of ob on leash. Start with calm children and work your way up to flailing screaming kids at a playground--all while his focus and ob is coming along excellent each step of the way with you.

Are you working with a club or trainer for PP?

Edited by Michele McAtee (08/18/2008 06:31 AM)
Edit reason: small kids and ob...

Hey Al, sorry to say it but I think separation is your only option. I think most of your work now will be with the kids. I don't have my kids do any ob with my dog other than if they are going to pet him they call him to them instead of them approaching him and have him sit. I do this mainly for keeping their attention on what they are doing. I don't let them give him treats just because I don't think they'll keep from pulling their hands away quickly triggering the prey drive again. There are other threads here that discuss the dog learning the kids are yours and not his to chase, I think thats the best course to take.

 Quote:

I don't let them give him treats just because I don't think they'll keep from pulling their hands away quickly triggering the prey drive again.

Thanks for catching that Steve. I should have been clearer . I don't want any kids losing fingers .

My kids usually gave treats to my dogs , and still do actually , while I control him on a 6' lead . They stand away from him and either tell him to sit or down then toss him the treat . That's the extent of OB they do with him . They've seen him nail me going for the kong and want nothing to do with handing him anything .

Same goes for playing fetch with him . I hold the dog a good distance away from them . They throw the kong , I let him go , he brings it back to me , I out him and we start over again .

Personally I'm amazed they have so much fun doing this but they do . They're young yet though and still easily amused .