While working with my 18-mo-old Shepherd bitch, I have had to redefine what I think constitutes prey drive, play drive, and hunt drive.

First, I have come to believe that all three are real and distinct drives. Many people believe that “play” is an element or subset of prey drive and that hunt drive can be seen as the same—not really distinguishable from prey drive. I probably believed this myself until recently.

The unusual thing about this dog is that she appears to cleanly differentiate between the three drives. A dog with strong prey drive should demonstrate a powerful urge to chase a ball, right?

Not necessarily. My dog has an extreme, almost insane urge to chase animals—and, at first, she showed the same intensity when I threw her a ball (I should add here that I was her fourth handler and that no one else had played ball with her much). But after a few days she figured out that the ball wasn’t something she could kill and eat. I soon noticed that she would frequently take off after the ball, then stop before she reached it when she’d pick up scent on the ground. And then off she’d go, following the scent and forgetting all about the ball.

We are able to play ball if we are in an enclosed space where there isn’t much scent. Otherwise, the nose takes over (hunt drive) and the game is off. What mode is operating here? It seems clear to me that my dog’s hunt drive and prey drive are much more strongly developed than her play drive—her desire to engage in a game of “make-believe prey” with me. The same applies when we play with a tug toy. As long as there isn’t much scent around, she will play tug all day. But if she smells something or sees an animal in the distance—game over.

I should add that I have never seen a dog with her tracking intensity and probably never will again. With no training at all, she was able to follow scent for long distances on asphalt, concrete, etc. She can trail dogs, squirrels, rabbits, or people about equally well and is absolutely concentrated on her task. What is operating here? Hunt drive (although when she locates the person she has been trailing, she is content to merely bark <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

My previous GSD had an entirely different balance of these drives. This is a dog that would play ball until he dropped dead, no matter what was going on around us. As a tracking dog he was average; he had the basic talent but lacked the intensity of a true tracking dog. And he never showed much interest in chasing game—wouldn’t think of jumping on a mouse even if one popped out right in front of him (I’ve seen it happen). So here we see very high play drive, low prey drive, and average hunt drive.

To recap:

Prey drive = the desire to chase down ANIMALS (not “moving objects&rdquo;
Play drive = the desire to engage in a game of make-believe prey (also occurs between dogs at play);
Hunt drive = the desire to locate and flush out potential prey.

Any and all comments are welcome.

Pete Felknor

Good post. I'll take one potion for comment and leave the rest for others. Hunt drive is sometimes incorrectly confused with sport tracking. Can a high scoring sport tracker have good hunt drive. Sure can. Does it have to? No. Just like a dog working in prey in protection to an amateur looks like the real thing. A sport tracking dog could finish a nice track not working in hunt drive at all.

Thanks, Vince... at the risk of sounding a bit silly here, "food drive" in our domestic canids is not at all the same as the "hunt drive" that came down from their wild ancestors. That's why I was able to teach my older dog to track--pure "food drive" (that expression sounds AWFULLY silly <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> ). He always liked to eat, especially if he didn't have to kill anything to do it. Kinda like a lot of us :rolleyes: .

Pete

Having a sport background I knew that you would agree.

I don't think I'm ready to redefine prey today to limit it to only animals. Just because some dogs have preferences or limitations in what they view as prey or find attractive, I wouldn't change the definition. Most people would say my youngster has high prey, yet there was a LONG LONG time where he would chase a ball, catch up to it and decide THIS BALL wasn't the one he wanted, and he would refuse to pick it up. He would have favorites, which I had to put up, in order to force him to learn to generalize the behavior to all toys that I presented. Some dogs do great with balls and lousy with tugs or frisbees. Doesn't change the drive, only their expression of it.

And I would include "pretend fighting" in the description of playing, cuz I know my way of playing with dogs is only partly prey - the roughhousing is more like two dogs play-fighting, wrestling. There doesn't have to be any prey object involved at all.

Great post Pete. Your post kind of clears up some of the confusion that I was having regards the prey drive statements that I had been reading that equated prey drive to the desire to chase moving objects(ie - ball, tug, frisbee or whatever)
My huskies are very predatory but would not chase a ball or frisbee or play with a toy if their lives depended on it. Their credo seems to be "no fur, no feathers, no blood -no way". The only play behaviours are pseudo chase/hunts with one dog electing itelf as "prey" and co-operative pseudo-hunting by the rest of the dogs. They like to follow their noses,too so I guess that is part of "hunt drive". A lot of behaviour under harness is influenced by the prey/hunt drive - chasing another team, or the arrival of some wildlife will really speed up your team and overtaking or passing another team I would guess
simulates heading game to turn it or the catch of the prey. So what is the ball drive stuff-play? After spending 17 and one half years with an elkhound/husky cross who would play ball,frisbee or stick or tug for hours and loved toys I got to admit I miss it(and her- she went to the rainbow bridge 28 Jun 1999). I can tear up just looking at a frisbee now - good memories!

Tiggy2 wrote:

 Quote:

"no fur, no feathers, no blood-no way".

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Pete

No fur, no feathers, no blood-no way.
That is the way of life with hunt terriers. Their different drives and combinations of different drives is wierd. My border dog, Rags, is the most laid back, unexcitable, people soft dog I have ever owned, but I retired him very early because of his extreme fight drive and his willingness to take punishment from the quarry (fox, coon, woodchuck). He would never chase a ball or anything that didn't have sent on it. My border bitch, Polly, was very similar in not chasing a ball, but she would just grip the quarry until we dug to her. My JRT, Pete, is absolutely ball crazy but he will not make contact with quarry. He just stays back 6-8 inches and bays.(my choice in a hunt terrier). I think working terriers have very similar drives to working GSD's,etc. just different levels for different situations. My JRT was a weak nerved Mal in a earlier life. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm gonna take a different direction. I think play drive/prey drive is influenced quite a bit by yet another "drive", Pack Drive. Retrieve response is I think some prey/some pack, JMO. So dogs that lack a lot of pack drive (directed at people) are never at the same level in play drive as dogs that are very handler oriented.

Maybe a perfect example is the hunting terrier or the husky dog. They are both, what I would consider, very independant dogs. Not nearly as responsive to their handlers as say the shepherd breeds. Some call this stubborness, I think.

Then of course there is the work put into a dog from day one to direct what level of Prey/Play drive he has into the toys/prey objects. Nature and nurture??

Just me thinking out loud.

Hmmm...I'm leaning more toward the idea that they are all aspects of the same drive, and that different dogs will express it differently. I think part of that is in the genetics, and part is in the imprinting, as with so very many things dog.

Just as an example, my mixed breed bitch killed a squirrel yesterday. It was a young male, inexperienced (his testicles hadn't even dropped yet). His mother was nearby, chattering from the tree. Anyway...she also loves to stalk and kill garden snakes (hunt drive). She's very visual, when we walk, she's constantly on the lookout for anything that moves. When we play, she prefers the chase and bite (can catch a frisbee out of midair very gracefully), and will run around with the toy, giving it the death shake.
My Labrador, on the other hand, loves to play retrieve, but the toy doesn't have to be moving away from him for him to want it. If the toy disappears, he hunts it out by its scent. He loves to track, and is very intent on finding the "quarry" at the end.
I would say that both are expressing prey/hunt drive with these activities, but differently. I think that it is in the genetics. The mixed breed is a herding mix, mostly, but I suspect some Springer in her as well. They rely on a different aspect of their prey drive to do the work they were bred to do. The Labrador Retriever locates his quarry mainly by smell. Same drive, just a different need/behavior.
I think in your case, Pete, you're comparing two dogs of the same breed, so it's a bit different from what I'm observing. But even within the same breed, we know that there are so many variations, that it makes sense that you would also see some variation between individual dogs in the way that drives are expressed.