to what age/size is it normal for dogs to see children as prey items? (for the dogs that do see children as prey items, anyways)

....and i'm talking children walking calmly with their mother, not running around wildly or anything.

Children walking calmly shouldn't be viewed as prey.

Prey is something moving quickly, jerkily.

NOW, if the dog has already had experiences with children running, jumping, etc, and begun to associate ALL children with that behavior, then you've got an issue.

hmm. okay. i've noticed that if teagan sees kids on skateboard or bikes she tends to perk up, but won't leave my side.

i'd already assumed due to her prey drive i'd need to be careful about having her around children (i.e., she probably wouldn't be). i don't have any friends w/kids though i do have 2 friends who are pregnant.

but i thought the worst of it would be at the infant/toddler stage. today when we were walking after work, there were two children - i'm going to guess around the boy was around grade 4 or 5, and the girl a few years younger. we weren't close to them, but she definitely had an obvious prey reaction to them - they were crossing the street with their mother. i had her in a loose heel, and she did move forward, but didn't fully break it.

....but her body language when she saw a squirrel 5 minutes later was almost identical. so i can't be in any doubt about how she viewed them.

i guess i just never thought a squirrel and children that size would elicit the same response.

perhaps from seeing kids on skateboards/bikes she is seeing all kids as prey, even if they're walking calmly?

she's already muzzled and leashed on walks, just in case, and i'd already sort of flagged children as a potential issue but wasn't really sure - the hopeful part of me thought maybe she just really likes kids (though i wasn't about to just let her go up to one to see), but i can't be in any doubt now. i guess it disturbed me a)b/c the kids weren't acting in a way i thought should elicit a prey response; and b)b/c i thought they were kind of big.

Sometimes the pitch of kid's voices catches a dog's attention.

Also, kids smell good to dogs.
Not in a "ooh, I wanna eat that kid" sense... more in a way of "wow. he stinks like cookies and dirt and sweat. cool"
Kids tend not to mask their odor with a lot of perfume or cologne, so dogs tend to enjoy their smell.

Mostly though, dogs begin to associate kids with their normal, running, jumping, climbing trees behavior, and view them as fun to play with.
If she associates kids with the blurry, noisy things going by on skateboards and bikes, then yes, she'll look at all kids with quite a bit of interest.

i don't think they were talking - that or her hearing is way better than mine (which probably isn't hard).

this seemed to be more....she hadn't gone into a stalk, it was her typical 'about to stalk' reaction. maybe she does just really excitedly, joyfully, like kids. going after squirrels is also fun to her. mind you, i've seen her excited, joyful, 'OMG the bf is here!!!!!!!!!!!' reaction, and it was not the same as her reaction today.

i don't think we see that many kids - she's certainly not around them, like i said. we did have a kid - a bit older than the ones today - approach us kind of to ask why she was muzzled last week, and she was fine, she didn't try to go for him or anything. maybe i shouldn't assume the worst. i think though, not be label her unfairly, err on the side of caution and assume it's a full-blown prey response, not a play response. i just really thought these kids were big.

i don't know....from almost the first i had her, i thought i needed to find a good outlet for all her prey drive. i took her to a SchH club and then the week after she got diagnosed w/HD and a bone chip in her left hip. not sure she's temperament-wise appropriate for that anyways. but i always wonder if her prey reactions would be better or worse. she does get a fair bit of exercise (she's now walking far enough again i feel we can start our short runs), and obedience work for her mental business.

Better safe than sorry, where kids and dogs are concerned.
I'd hate for her, or the kid, to have a negative experience, that will color their perceptions for the rest of their lives.

That said, finding an older, well-experienced around tough dogs kid to meet her in a muzzle, might go a long way towards satisfying some of her curiousity.

Perhaps a local breeder or trainer has a pre-teen son or daughter that could meet her in a controlled, muzzled environment?

well, exactly. she's already (and it's my fault) got the one strike against her with respect to dogs. ETA: well, really, it's a strike against me, but other people relate it more to her, however unfair that is. even my mother - she always says teagan makes her uneasy, b/c she's so exuberant at times, and so....ON at other times, and so clearly not positive about dogs outside of the pack. but then whenever my mom sees teagan or spends any time with her she remembers what a giant sweet suck teagan can be and falls back in love with her. i find that tends to be the way with teagan.

hmm, maybe the kids at FR. i think she has met a couple of them....so maybe i shouldn't freak out. i've taken her there to work on issues with our FR trainer and i know the kids of the one couple were nearby, i think one of them pet her. ....my memory is awful, geez.

but those kids live w/3 sport mals. actually, the only time i've scolded neb for biting is when he was biting their older daughter who's on the field with us and had asked if she could pet/play with him - i'd say she's 12 or 13....just b/c i was like 'don't bite KIDS!' but her dad said 'no! don't scold him! she knows what puppy bites are like, she's fine'. so they're probably used to relatively tough dogs.

maybe it's worth asking if i can take her there to be around them. she doesn't have any close contact with children in our day-to-day life, so in that sense, it's not an issue, but i was a little taken aback by her reaction today. maybe it's something i need to socialize her to, just in case.

Sounds like they are good prospects to be "kiddie friends" with Teagan.

Sometimes it's good for dogs to meet kids, just so they know what the heck those strange, short people are all about.
Plus, the more people and situations Teagan experiences, the better she will react, and the better you will be at reading her as a handler.

"Club" kids, ie, kids whose parents own/train sport dogs are always a good choice for socializing dogs to kids. They're very comfortable with a wide range of dog behaviors, usually don't mind being mouthed or jumped on, and are pretty fearless around dogs.

With close supervision from you and the kid's parents, it sounds like a neat opportunity for Teagan to get to know some short people, and learn "kid manners".

well, and while i did initially have the reaction after the attack that i could never take her anywhere again (and as i've said before, my confidence was at an all-time low), i realized i have to have her out and about b/c socialization is WAY more important with her than it is with luc or neb. i mean, obviously it's important for all them, but just b/c of the three dogs she poses the greatest threat if she chooses to. and b/c her socialization also obviously might need some work.

we don't go to FR for another few weeks due to vacation, but i think i'll email their mom and ask. their oldest daughter is pretty great actually, neb stays on the field a fair bit so he gets to sort of soak it in and see the big dogs doing bitework (except for the dobe doing PP....no dogs of any size out and about then), and she'll handle him if we're out on the field doing a crowd for a dog to heel through or something similar.

(and actually, as i'm no longer injured and now more confident, teagan's getting a lot of walking in out and about in different situations....which means i know now where the dog she attacked lives. which was awkward when i first figured it out, but we carefully avoid each other. i think b/c of what he did to me, and me reporting it, we'd all prefer to avoid each other. but!!! both their other dog and the dog she attacked barked at her, raised up a storm when we were walking on the other side of the street and they could see out their fence. which made me feel a bit better, i hope it means the dog isn't scarred mentally for life. especially since i think she hurt it fairly badly.)

I think one of the things you're missing in all this seeing children as prey business, is that dogs don't really see that well. Fifty yards to us is very close and easily identified, but for the dog it's starting to get toward the outer boundries they can bring into focus.
Dogs key on movement or sound first first. It's their strong suits. While I think some high drive dogs have a hard time shifting gears once engaged, for the most part they just need to get close enough to actually see and identify what drew their interest to begin with. In this case, children.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy