In the far flung future, I'm planning to purchase a German Shepherd trained for protection. It took me 3 years to research and select the breeder for my Labrador (pet!!), so I make my decisions slowly and carefully. My question is....where do you start looking for a trained protection dog? With a pet Lab it was easy enough to go to the breed clubs, meet the dogs with the temperaments I liked, meet the breeders, etc. With my Lab I realized the only way to tell the difference between a $1000 pet quality pup and a $1000 backyard bred dog with a lousy temperament to really do the research and ask the right questions. And with a pet Lab, there's not much at stake. I've owned a weak nerved German Shepherd and it was just a terrible experience, one I care not to repeat. After looking on the internet (I know, not the best place to start looking)it's interesting to see all of the breeders/companies offering "trained protection dogs". How do you know they're getting their dogs from quality sources? Some claim that dogs trained for the sport of Schutzhund may not make great protection dogs when the need arises, although I seriously doubt this. Any tips that anyone can provide on finding a quality trained dog would be very much appreciated. I just need to be pointed in the right direction and need to know the questions I should be asking. If you have a short list of a few quality people to talk to, that would be a bonus.

Thanks in advance!

Sonja

Schutzhund dogs are not Personal Protection Dogs.
That isn't a claim, it is the truth. The training is virtually night and day.

I love Schutzhund (as does my knucklehead GSD), but it is a sport, a test of the dog's quality- it isn't training for PP.

Mike S. and Will have made some great posts about PPDs in the past, especially PPD selection, and how to tell if a "trained" dog is really "trained". Try searching for them, and you should uncover a wealth of info.

With your level of experience, I would strongly advise finding a Protection Club in your area- you need their help. You've got a lot to learn, re: living with and handling a PPD, selecting a PPD, etc.

My final question would be, what makes you desire a PPD?

Here ya go, an awesome discussion to get you started:

PPD

WOW! I don't know how I missed that link in my original searches, but that was exactly what I was looking for. It proved to me how ignorant I really am! Now I feel a bit silly. As I mentioned earlier, most of my searches were online, and the websites I found all painted a picture of a calm PPD that was trustworthy and social in public and had the good sense to protect when needed. I usually don't trust the claims of someone who has something to sell to me. I came here because I know the good folks here have real-life experience with such dogs. I could control our weak-nerved GSD, but even after years and years of training he just never understood that the entire world and all the people in it weren't out to kill us. He was reactive to people without reason, but not all the time. He was 100% unpredictable. He's not with us any longer, and as much of a liability as he was, I miss the part of him that COULD make good judgments!

We had an incident at our house back in February that had me missing his protective instinct and thinking about another GSD in the future.

My experience with my last GSD has me wanting one that is almost his polar opposite. I'm looking for one that is trained, dependable, and can be trusted in public. I want an adult, as I feel the personality is fully developed and I would know exactly what I am getting. It was my mistaken thought that a PPD dog is exactly that, with the added benefit of being trained to know when it is necessary to act and when it isn't (a problem we had with our past shepherd). I thought the training would decrease liability, but I see it increases it.

If I had to choose a sociable dog over one that is trained to bite on command, I would choose the sociable dog, hands down. Is there such thing as a sociable GSD that is trained to the hilt (I'm talking almost flawless obedience on leash and off, and extensive socialization), reliable, and older (2+ years) that comes from solid lines and will be backed by the trainer/breeder? By "backing" I mean that calls or emails are answered for the life of the dog and that the trainer/breeder genuinely cares for the welfare of the dogs.

I don't let my dogs get away with much, so I'm not a push-over owner who can't handle a GSD (although after being educated I realize a PPD dog is more than I WANT to handle). The vast difference in the show lines and imports is mind boggling to me. If anyone has any advice on where to start, that would be great....until then, I'm going to start sifting through the old posts.

Thanks!

Sonja

 Quote: Sonja Johnson

.... Is there such thing as a sociable GSD that is trained to the hilt (I'm talking almost flawless obedience on leash and off, and extensive socialization) ... I don't let my dogs get away with much, so I'm not a push-over owner who can't handle a GSD ....

Why are you not considering doing this ob training yourself? Or maybe doing it in your own home with the help of a professional?

I think her fear is, and correct me if I'm wrong Sonja, that she'll end up with another genetic mess, like her last GSD.

Your best bet, for what you are seeking, is to get a pup, from a very good, very reliable breeder, who offers some basic written guarantees.

A quality, working line GSD is a relatively sure bet, nerve-wise.
Personally, I would get a working line pup, and raise and train it yourself.

Later, you can train your dog to bark, and generally be an effective visual deterrant.

My 7 mos old GSD is already 98% reliable on-leash, and probably 70% off-leash. But she has ridiculous drive that has made her a dream to train, and she has taken to marker training like a fish to water.

She is also retardedly attached to me, and would like nothing more than to spend her life glued to my hip.
She is also very much in love with my 4 year old son, and watches him like... well, a Shepherd.

PPD's that's tough... It's good that you read about them because really, not everybody needs one. As Alyssa said, read Will's and Mike S's. postings. They're the real deal.

Remeber one thing too, dogs do not make judgement calls. Ever. They're animals plain and simple

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

... A quality, working line GSD is a relatively sure bet, nerve-wise. .... Personally, I would get a working line pup, and raise and train it yourself.

Me too. And this is the place for the resources to do that, IMHO, as well as learn about leadership (even more important).

 Quote: alyssa myracle

I think her fear is, and correct me if I'm wrong Sonja, that she'll end up with another genetic mess, like her last GSD.

YES! That is exactly my fear! We spent over $5000 on 4 different trainers in hopes they could help us help our GSD through his insecurities and make him a more enjoyable companion. We did all of the training, we never sent him out. The trainers were a mix....one trained K-9s for the local police force, another trained Schutzhund, one was a well-recommended regular old dog trainer, and one specialized in aggressive dogs. We trained commands for fun, and worked with the trainers on socialization/desensitizing/distraction exercises. The last trainer hit the nail on the head when she told us "He's trained. You've trained him to respond to over 70 commands and taught him how to open and close a car door. At this point in the game, you are trying to train out WHO he is, and that just isn't fair to the dog. He can't be something he's genetically incapable of."

I would like a young adult dog, because when ours hit 2-3 years old, his aggression rose to a whole new level and it got to the point where it was not enjoyable to take him out anymore. We weren't having fun, and he wasn't having fun. Nothing was fun when we left the house.

I am probably capable of training a GSD, but after my last experience it would be nice to have an adult dog that has known quirks...I don't want anymore surprise aggressions. GSDs are so intelligent that any slip up/lack of foresight in training will come back to haunt you later! My Labs are a breeze because I can be really lackadaisical in their training. With my GSD, if you didn't close all your loopholes, he'd find them and you'd have to think of better ways to teach! He was a willing student, so I often wonder if I failed in his training, or if his bad genetics really did make him that much of a reactive mess. Since there is an ounce of me that wonders if it was a training issue, I would hate to find that out on a new pup. If I get a trained adult dog, and can maintain the training without aggression issues for the life of that dog, then I might be willing to try a pup the NEXT go-round. I'd rather spend $7000+ on a trained adult to guarantee a GOOD experience with a GSD than take a risk on having a pup that may or may not turn out to be what we were looking for in a GSD. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to take the lazy way out, I just know that GSDs can be great dogs. And I know that a puppy's experiences, good and bad, can greatly affect the end personality.

Sonja

There is one thing many people don't gamble on with adult dogs, that I've never seen mentioned here on Leerburg (that's not saying it hasn't been...)

My husband had a terrific GSD, K.C., that he got as an adult.
K.C. was an awesome Ring and PPD. But he had horrific seperation anxiety, as a result of having been raised and trained by one person, then sold to my husband.

K.C. jumped through a plate glass window, to be near my husband.
He destroyed everything in sight, escaped from crates, and chewed his front legs raw, all on a regular basis, because of the severe anxiety of being seperated.

One of my husbands other dogs, a female Rott, had similar issues, but she had the additional strike of having come from a heavy-handed trainer. On top of seperation anxiety, she had issues with submissive urination and handler aggression.
It didn't take my husband long, about 24 hours, to realize that Oprah (the trainer named her Oprah...) had serious issues; he kept her mostly out of pity, and not wanting to return her to an abusive trainer, and Oprah did eventually get over her issues, and managed to obtain her Brevet.

None of her issues were visable the THREE times he went out to see the dog, and he had NO clue how screwed up the dog was. She seemed perfect at the trainer's home, and performed nicely for the trainer, seemed very social and friendly. My husband swears the dog must have been drugged.

The trainer was (and still is) highly respected in the Pac NW as a French Ring trainer and Rott Breeder.

Don't let one negative experience raising your own GSD deter you.
A well bred, working line GSD is not going to have the issues your last dog had.
Meet the pup's parents. If they are sound, and you see a decent amount of title's in the dog's lineage you've got a good bet that the dog will be sound in temperment.

Then, really evaluate the puppy itself. Observe it's behavior. Most nerve/temperment issues ARE present as pups, and can be observed, if you know what to look for.

Getting an already trained dog is no different that training yourself, in the long run.
The same things you are concerned about with training the dog yourself, can still occur in an already trained dog.
You can make one mistake, and they decide that all their prior training no longer applies. You will still have to do maintainance training, which will be no different than just training the dog yourself.

There is no substitute for the bond you develop when you raise a dog from a pup.