Mods please move this where it belongs. My boy is now biting me when I choke him of the suit. He is a 1.5 yr old Mal. Because of his personality trainer and I have decided to wait on training the out. We feel it won't be an issue and don't want him to staert outing prematurely. We are trying somethings but would like to hear some ideas. Thanks. He is in training for PSA

Mitch

This is really a great way to ruin your relationship with your dog. Can you really blame him for biting you?

This is OLD OLD school dopg training. If you were choked out for doing something you really didnt understand (which is the case with a dog that does this) would you fight back?

Go to a Michael Ellis seminar and learn how to train. This past weekend there were a couple of people there that were PSA trainers. They were also fixing problems that inexperienced helpers created.

When dogs understand the work and the work is correct they OUT.

That fits into my thoughts as well. He is still mostly biting for fun and this is making me the bad guy. He want to go back to decoy after slipping. So we should train the out now? Dog is very independent and is not that close to me to begin with.

I think when doing what I like to call the "exhaustive out" it is important to remember that you are not supposed to be punishing the dog! Please describe your process leading up to the out, the out, and then after the out.

I've done exhaustive outs before with dogs (Ed's right it's totally old-school) and good Ellis/Balabanov training can have a young pup outing joyfully at a very young age, and with a genetically strong biting dog this is far preferable. However, if you have a dog lacking intensity (which you seemed to allude to in your first post) it CAN help to let the dog bite without having to out for his first year or so. But you should not be angering him. Again, it isn't a punishment.

I am looking forward to hearing your process. When I work with an exhaustive out, I find it's important to have the decoy be IMMOBILE, then pick the dog off the ground in a VERY wide collar. Right after the dog outs, immediately refocus him onto you with play. Remember the purpose of the exhaustive out in the first place was to encourage biting in a hesitant dog. If he's biting now, and he's holding onto that suit, then your mission was accomplished! It's time to start teaching a positive out.

I think the term "choking" him off the out, unless that is really what you are doing, is misleading. If all you were doing was "getting the suit back from him" without telling him to out, that's quite different. But the exhaustive out will only work in a very young or weak dog. But those are the dogs it's meant for. If your dog doesn't fit into this category anymore, it's time to move on.

Try to make this short but descriptive. Dog gets last bite,regrip,slip suit,run dog around. bring into arms calm and praise. Slowly grab flat collar and lift front off ground. when drops decoy starts over. Last bite of session runs jacket off field. Was doing ok last few weeks been going after my hand when he drops. What we are doing now is as soon as drops decoy is ready with a sleeve or another decoy fires him back up also usind second leash instead of my hand.

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Slowly grab flat collar and lift front off ground.

This is the way I was taught first, but I have seen some horrible side effects from this, including one of my own dogs, so I now refuse to do it that way with any dog because I see it as a lazy way to work dogs. Too lazy to wait for the dog to spit it out, or trading for something else.

Something I learnt from a friend of mine a couple years ago, and I know it seems really obvious now looking back, is that the dog does not need to Out the toy in order to continue the training session. The early bitework focus, at least for this trainer, is on setting the dogs grip and, since the dogs are in KNPV, taught to "push" into the bite. So the dog is rewarded, allowed to run with the prey, praised, then allowed to return to the decoy while still holding the prey so the decoy can re-engage with the dog and continue working on the dogs push-bite and grip. Not only does the dog get to continue working his grip without having to worry about the Out while he is still learning to bite properly, but he is also learning to return to the decoy for the "fight" rather than just taking his prey and running off la di da. The decoy becomes an important part of what makes the dogs prey game fun. The dog will learn that the joy is in the fight with the decoy, and not solely in the reward that comes from it.

Your dog is 1.5 years old and I dont know how much foundation work there is, so I don't know how applicable it is to your dog. But I post for the benefit of anyone else that, well, might benefit from a different option to choking the dog in order to speed up a training session for a dog that doesn't know to Out yet.

when on the sleeve we did alot of going back to decoy and reengaging. he wants to go back. how do you start up again with the suit.Dog is not a high prey drive dog. Is biting good on suit but not as sound in the pocket as he is on a sleeve.Has pretty good nerves and is what I have to work with. Mike, are you saying go ahead and start outing? we are up to adding several distractions while on bite gunfire rock jugs pom poms stick hits and is very comitted on flee attack. just some backround on him. He has now been on 9 different decoys and at several locations. one send across a creek.

JMO, I wouldn't start adding distractions/additional threats until the dog is solid in the pocket.
The dog needs to feel comfortable on the decoy before you start making the situation more stressful. It sounds like he has some handler and helper conflict.

I agree 110% with Mike's suggestion. The same advice was stressed over an over again in a recent helper seminar I attended. Very sound advice.

It sounds like some backtracking, and return to foundation work may be in order, until the dog gets some more confidence, and works through the handler conflict he's having.