is there any breeders who specialize in breeding show line
GSD that place equal importance on a dog with a strong drive.
I went to NASS this weekend and i couldnt believe what i saw.
These dogs in the protection phase was just a joke. I felt sorry for the dogs.
feel free to pm with any info
i did hear charley starr was going this direction, but cant find his kennel name

No. Not really. There are some show lines out there that can do the work but no specific breeders or lines that are producing strong dogs.

thats dissapointing,

That is dissappointing to hear. I happen to know of at least a handful of high lines that actually can work. I am also privilidged to own a few of them.

Jasper Kleinen Teich is a well known 100% show line owned, bred, trained and titled by Chris Gaumont in MA. He has competed both regionally and nationally in sch and done exceedingly well.

Olesko Vom Sandstein is a SchH3 IP3 Ring1 FH2 (represented the US in Ring world Championship, I believe) who is also 100% Show lines. Owned by Daniella B (can't for the life of me remember how to spell her last name)also in MA.

At the risk of bragging, I Handle, Own and Train Gipsi Vom Sawtooth, SchH2, who is also well known for actually being able to work. She recently EARNED her SchH2 with 97 in phase C.

There are a few show line breeders out here who DO NOT breed to the "Winners" at the sieger shows. We actually train and work our dogs as GSDs and not show dogs. The ring isn't what we work for. Granted, the majority of show line breeders are breeding the pretty gait and not paying ANY attention to the working ability...BUT there are a few of us who do pay attention to working ability. We lay proper foundation and we do NOT send our dogs out to be trained and titled by someone else.

We will be breeding Gipsi to Olesko in 2009.

James I'm sure there are a few high line GSD's that do *good* work as there are a few of everything, but unfortunately a few anecdotal examples do not make a trend. IMO there has already been a split in the working and show German GSD's and in fact the show German GSD's are considered by most in their working community a sub-set of the breed and I'm sure after seeing them work, the breeds founder would agree. Now, there are judges that specialize in high line dogs events and are in much demand by the show community. The helpers are instructed by those same judges not to put the same pressure on those dogs as they would on working line GSD's during their breed surveys or trials where most of the dogs are from show lines. Moreover, for the most part, the show GSD's typically don't train with a working club. Please understand there are exceptions but not many as compared with those that look for the easy way out. The differences between the two sub species are indeed stunning but non-the less it is the reality of what is occurring today.That said even they are light years ahead of the American show GSD which for all intent and purpose are mental and physical cripples. Regards Norman

I just don't understand the appeal of a showline dog, if you want to work. If you want a working GSD, get a working LINE GSD.

If you like pretty... get a sable.
(of course, I'm biased)

Alyssa the appeal is money as you can get 10 times the money for a proven winner in big shows as you can for a proven winner at big trials in a working venue. Regards Norman

I guess my question to your question would be what do you mean by working drive. that may depend on your working drive and what you can do or have done for you. I think what a lot of the people on here should realize is that yes some of the bite work is a little on the weaker side, but that doesn't mean the dogs are weaker. If the right person took most of these dogs they could get the results that most people would be happy with. It is the owners and the judges fault for these dogs looking weak. Some of these dogs are pushed too fast and too hard to get there titles so they can breed them or sale them. I'm not trying to be a start a fight with anyone but I worked everyone of these dogs for the last 3 years and I see what they could be and not what they are, thanks for listening

James wrote in part:
"I think what a lot of the people on here should realize is that yes some of the bite work is a little on the weaker side, but that doesn't mean the dogs are weaker".

A little on the weaker side, James you are the master of the understatement. So then IYO, what else, other than how the dogs stand up to pressure by a third party, would be a accurate test of a dogs working temperament. Are we to assume that most all of these dogs are correct even though they look like shit while doing protection. Regards Norman

I highly agree that breeders or owners of high lines who send their dogs off for training and titling receive back dogs that are titled but truly lack training. More importantly they lack the foundation necessary for the work.

I am highly critical of the working ability or lack there of in high lines. I find a lot of the bite work I see to be sub par. What I see at sieger show perfomance tests is disgusting at best. Overall, I find that high lines that are handler, owned and trained, where the training is delivered at a working dog club tend to have stronger foundation, better bite behavior and better temperament.