About a year ago I worked with a friend of mines then and now a K9 handler that works his dog professionaly.

This was a beautiful Czechoslovakian GSD name (Czec)he was a little smaller then my male, a little longer hair he weighed about 80lbs a strong solid dog (a $20K dog). Multi purposed Tracking, Narc and Patrol dog. We worked on tracking, Ob basic and Protection, he told me after the session that "Your GSD is a fine dog and that sometimes these dogs are smarter then we are".

His dog Chec was a great dog, worth every bit of $20k, going by his handler, respocible for some of the largest dope bust in the state. I certainly was impressed.

Here is the question, Why do they walk in a circle making a sush sound, swing the sleeve?
This was the helper technique he taught me. Is it to protect the dog? From avoidance?

Was this a basic helper technique he was showing?

Or is it a standard intermediate dog training technique?

We usually use the zig zag (wounded prey) forward approach. Until the dog is ready for the straight forward meancing almost stomping the ground frontal stick in hand approach.

I occassionally went back to the straight in confortation, it didn't hurt his dog as a matter of fact the dog bit harder. I could feel his bite pressure inside the nicely made leather sleeve, he really slammed the sleeve, then.

My GSD didn't bark strongly at this circuling motion and I think really didn't see it at as a threat, he bite because I told him to. But didn't bite hard nor did he try to take the shelve off his arm, like he use to. Sorta bite and held, jerked straight back.

As I remember the dog was only clear to bit while the helper was facing forward, meaning that we didn't follow the helper with dog still on the sleeve, the dog was outted as he turned away until he came full circle again. I think that how it went.

Would a difference in the helpers approach lower the dogs precieved threat level thereby affecting the bite performance or was it something else going on here. Where as the straight in approach heighten his dog, Obvious there was a difference in dogs and level of training. But why did I see a dip in bite performance?

Could it be that the much harder sleeve affected my dogs bite performance? This was one of the expensive leather sleeve, we usually trained using the barlaped covered PCV like padded adult sleeve.

I didn't expect a Czec like performance but at least a normal hit and drag.

I'm having a hard time following the point of your post, but I'll give it a try.

A lot of helpers use a circular, arcing path, swinging the sleeve to elicit prey drive. This technique is generally used only on very young dogs. A more frontal approach is more suitable for most dogs worth their salt, over six months of age.

A harder sleeve could certainly affect a dogs grip, depending on the dog and its experience.

Czechoslovakia

Sleeve

Czech?

Ok VanCamp I don't have a dictionary in front of me, and I can't spell and work on computer programs at the same time. What do you think the of this guys helper technique? Why was it used? And have you ever seen this technique?

John H
I figured something like that. But why did my dog not bite as hard as usual? Any ideas, would the harder sleeve change his bite?

I'm into Czech dogs, so I was just helping you out.

Seems like basic prey movements to stimulate the dog. Dogs bite differently in different drives sometimes, but new sleeves can be problems also.

What I would be worried about is if your dog bit because you were pushing him into defense. Dogs bite hard in defense, but often shallow and chewy like.

I think you should read all the articles that Ed has on protection training and drives. You should also get The First Steps of Bite Training. That video goes over prey bite development indepth.

Thanks I edited it with your corrections.

His bite is usually pretty good on the sleeve that he is use to and the appoarch that he is use to. For instance the surprise appoarch up wind from the dog, the helpers behind a corner/bush shouting coming toward us or when he is capturing the running helper his bite is pretty strong. I think this shows strong prey/defensive confident biting skills.

I think that the hard leather sleeze is a better one for feeling bite progress because you can feel the bite pressure. And it promotes a full bite, though it harder to throw the helper around. The lighter PVC type sleeve seem to make it easier to throw the helper around because the dog can make a bite bar (get leverage) from any part of the sleeve, but no bite pressure is felt.
I kinda like the leather covered sleeve, but who can afford that.

Even after taking the sleeve, my dog only shakes it a couple of times and then concentrate on the helper. Showing his concentration is in the right place.

So as you suspect the harder sleeve could be a factor or the difference in prey stimiulation.

When he started the marching circle my dog, watch him, he was not barking. Until I issued the "watchem" usually when he see the helper. He is barking and when he gets the "Watchem" he's barking, jumping up and down and trying to advance. When he was given the bite command he bit and regripped, bite again and regripped like he was trying to get a good hold. No side to side head movement more of a pull back, just like he was trying to get a hold, and pull again. By this time, it was time to out. This was more like full mouth snaps, never losing the sleeve but not sinking in like he is use to.

This action was not the chewing that you see from a young dog doing bite work. Where the action is sort of grinding with the side of his mouth?

Whats your opinion on this? Was he trying get a good hold or was he chewing.

I know we all could do more studying on this subject, certainly I do. I don't mean to frustrate you guys, this is a profession/career for most of you. It is just a hobbie for me right now. Being trained to be a new helper is sorta like being a Nurse aid (nobody wants to be are in the sh**), the trainer is more like a Nurse/Doctor they know both sides of the coin the ins and outs. Thats why I'm asking, you guys.

Here what I've gotten from your comments, this is a very basic prey motivation tactic. And that a harder sleeve can affect the dogs bite.

Would a dog that started on the heavier sleeve but now worked on the softer lighter sleeve, have any problems? He would feel more of a slip and then grip instead of compression, but he would probably jerk your arm off. Is what I'm thinking.

A harder sleeve could affect a dog's grip b/c it's a harder sleeve. It's not as comfortable for the dog to bite a hard surface as it is a soft one.

As far as the weight of the sleeve, again, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Ray Allen sleeves I consider heavy, but that affects the helper more than the dog. I think a dog would look better on a lighter sleeve if anything. So, again, I don't really get it.

As far as pushing the helper around, doesn't have much to do with the sleeve. Has a lot more to do with the dog and the helper.

Is he growling on the grip? That is another sign of nervousness, like chewing the sleeve/tug.

John H.
I repeat ...I don't mean to frustrate you guys, this is a profession/career for most of you. It is just a hobbie for me right now. Being trained to be a new helper is sorta like being a Nurse aid (nobody wants to be are in the sh**), the trainer is more like a Nurse/Doctor they know both sides of the coin the ins and outs. Thats why I'm asking, you guys.

What is a Ray Allen Sleeve? The light sleeve that I'm referening to is made of lightweight PVC pipe (looks likes I've never taken it a part) its jointed by a leather like substance at the elbow giving a total protection of the arm that totally covered by the pipping, this is covered with a serveral layers of padding and then tight fitting sleeve cover. With this sleeve you feel him grab the arm but his teeth, seems to slide down into the bite bar. Mayeb it seems lighter maybe because it what I'm use to. But I bet if you weighed them the leather job is heavier.

The leather sleeve had a apparatus under the nice not saddle leather thick but thick leather cover. Jointed at the elbow, but the dogs able to bite and you feel the sleeve give, pressure of the dog bite can be felt on the forearm, there no way the dog going to bite through it but there is a difference in how it feels.

No after he bit it he didn't growl are anything just kept trying get a hold, when he was outted he barked.

If the dog is on the bite and is simply and clearly attempting to regrip, this is generally a good thing. :rolleyes:

What is a Ray Allen Sleeve?

I don't look at brand names I'm kinda of new to this, so the excitment is in the know how and doing. Not what is the best brand to do it with? As long as I don't have to get any stichtes then the sleeve is a good sleeve to me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />