Just trying to think of ways to keep working with Teagan.

Most of the advice I read on other forums assumes aggressive dogs are fearful and reacting out of fear. I don't think that is Teagan's issue - she tends to be confident in my eyes. Luc is a dog that tends to fearfulness (100 million times improved from when I adopted him), and to me, they are very different. I've had a couple of trainers assess her/help me with her - including a guy who does train protection and owns a couple of Leerburg dogs, and Neb's FR trainer - and fear hasn't been brought up.

So a lot of times I read about working with an aggressive dog around other dogs to help desensitize them/teach them to focus on the positive and not be fearful. That's the kind of thing I did with Luc, and I think it's a great approach in that situation.

Could that work for a dog like Teagan? She had fun attacking that small dog.

I was wondering about taking her to obedience classes and working away from the rest of the class. Still leashed and muzzled. This also assumes I could find a trainer who does regular obedience in class situations that would allow her on that (or any) basis.

Would this be useful for a dog like her? I do work on our walks about getting her to not react - to work on obedience and focus on other things - when other dogs are nearby. For the most part, it's fairly successful, but I know from watching her, I am modifying her behaviour only, not her attitude. And sometimes her behaviour isn't as modified as other times.

If you can teach fearful dogs not to be fear aggressive, can you teach dogs that are aggressive for other reasons (which I think is the case with Teagan) not to be aggressive?

 Quote: jennifer mullen

If you can teach fearful dogs not to be fear aggressive, can you teach dogs that are aggressive for other reasons (which I think is the case with Teagan) not to be aggressive?

Absolutely, it is about control. I am not sure you would be "curing" her from being DA and you will always have to watch her, but you can definitely teach her to look to you when she is in a situation that could end up with her displaying that behavior.

Not too sure about the obedience classes. I think it would highly depend on the trainer and their abilities. If your talking PetSmart and places like that, I would not do it at all.
If you are talking about finding a reliable trainer that has experience with DA cases, then I would discuss it with them and see if it would work for you.

I guess that's one thing that bugs me. I read books or on forums where people talk about curing their fear aggressive dogs, and then I wonder why I can't seem to 'cure' Teagan. I can control her and provide her with strict behavioural expectations, but nothing I've done so far at least has changed her at that basic level. Am I missing something? Could I be doing more? She's not exactly a shrinking violet with respect to people either, though I don't really consider her to be human aggressive. People have told me she's sharp, does that play a role here too?

To be honest, all the trainers whose opinions on dog aggression or aggression in general I really value, don't do group classes. Which perhaps says something. I was thinking of contacting the more reputable 'regular' trainers. I'm not sure I'd even be able to get her into a class on that basis, as the trainers might be concerned about the safety of the other dogs. Though, she's far less reactive when we're away from our property. It's not to say that she won't want to stare down larger dogs or see smaller dogs as popcorn, but she becomes most aggressive/potentially aggressive when dogs approach our yard or home. Just as she's most likely to alert stare at people in that situation as well (she's always silent, but she will move forward in an alert position and make eye contact with people going past. She also does this if we're out somewhere and people approach us. That said, she's not being bad or exhibiting aggression, she's just very forward). So I guess there's also the issue of, will the class pay dividends b/c we'll be away from her biggest trigger? However, I'm thinking, the more dog exposure, the better.

I would bet in a group ob class it would just make it worse. You need space and the right dogs to help.

I hadn't thought of that. But yes, she'll probably do better with dogs that ignore her, aren't reactive themselves, little dogs that bark a lot really excite her. She seems to be fine with dogs that are submissive/openly give her submissive signals and/or back/move away from her.

And it really is just the strange dogs. I thought when I brought Neb home I'd have to be really careful, but she's never been anything but great with him.

I took Andy through group ob classes until he was about 18mos and I'll never do it again. It was fine for my 1st Rott but me not being able to pay enough attention to my own dog caused problems.

I agree with Carol that you can definitely improve the situation with Tegan. Can you cure her? Probably not, in the sense of removing any tendencies towards DA completely. And, I'm not certain that just because others have said that they've cured their fear aggressive dogs, that the dogs are actually cured. Part of that depends on how you define "cure."

I think if you could find the right class situation, that could be helpful. I used to know a trainer when we lived in CT who had his own (mostly pet) dog training school, but was himself a very experienced SchH trainer/handler. He also handled dogs for people in competitive obedience (AKC). This was a perfect situation for me to be able to work thru some DA issues with my own GSD.

Part of the issue as far as the classes goes is keeping her totally focued on you, which of course, requires you to be focused on her. This works better in more advanced classes, where others have more control over their own dogs as well, rather than the beginner-type classes where everyone is clueless<g>.

I hope you can find the right kind of trainer.

leih

Jennifer- I just went through this in an OB class, although it was not my dog that was aggressive.

There was another Aussie in the class who was VERY aggressive- in fact, the trainer said, "He's going to be a dead dog if you don't get a handle on this". It made me uncomfortable, but the owner was good at correcting the dog and working hard at understanding her dog and it's personality.

IMO group OB classes are good for any type of dog- assuming they aren't totally nuts. What it does is add distraction. I could care less if my dog likes being around other dogs, but I want her to listen to me no matter what, so that was my mindset going into the classes.... formal training with the distraction of being in another environment and around other "things".

As far as listening to other trainers on what to do, remember, the only thing 100 dog trainers will agree on is that everyone else is wrong.

First of all, I agree with all of the above with regards to it not so much curing her, but helping her gain control of herself. Perhaps the idea of a more advanced OB class was a great one.

I just wanted to ad that I have found that going to a dog park (WAIT! Don't yell at me yet!) and staying OUTSIDE and at as far a distance as it takes to keep her calm, is a good way to do the same thing. At our park, the dogs are on leash until they get into the park, and then obviously contained. We started out about 50 yards from the fence and just did OB work on leash and SLOWLY moved closer until the dogs began reacting to us and/or Quinn reacted to them. We would stay there until everyone was good and calm.

Some days we would have to back up, and other days we would make huge strides forward. We are now at the point that we can go into the park and do OB work with dogs bouncing around us and jumping on him with out loosing focus on me. It cracks me up when the other owners watch us heeling and their dogs are trying to hump him or jump in his face. They get so embarrassed that the Rott is being good while their Lab or Golden is being a brat. And the long down with puppies rolling over onto their back and flipping over onto him while he stays... It always starts up conversations about training and pack leadership.

I am not saying that Tegan will ever get there, but it worked well for us, was free, and when ever we had time to go train.

I guess, for the most part, b/c we do have our days, I'm pretty happy with the level of control I have over her - I take her out sans prong for now, b/c she's been doing well - but I'd like her to improve more. I don't ever want to stop, b/c I know her control is totally reliant upon how aware I am/me as a presence.

I don't think I would ever want her around other (strange) dogs....too much risk, IMO, and the consequences too costly if something happens (from the standpoint of the other dog, its owner, and me).

And, maybe it's stupid, but I guess....how do people make formerly aggressive dogs reliable if they don't 'cure' them? My guess is that she attacked successfully before I adopted her....does a dog learning to attack successfully and learning to enjoy attacking - I guess, I have to be higher value and more fun than the enjoyment she derives from attacking? Right now, she will obey me b/c I asked her to, and we have a pretty good relationship, but not b/c I'm more fun. Maybe that's something to work on? Being more fun? Though, since she's muzzled, toys are out and treats are awkward at best. Ack.

Jessica, taking her to nearby a dog park sounds like a good idea, and maybe something we can do to assess if classes would work for us. I don't know of any dog parks around here w/fences and entrances, just open parks where people can have their dogs off-leash. So I'd have to be careful in that respect.

Mike, I always muzzle Teagan when she is outside the house. Compiling the difficulty of finding a regular-type trainer who would be okay with this, is also that while I don't really use the prong on her anymore, I would want her in it, even if it was on a different leash. Perhaps the guarantee that she would be muzzled would help. But I could understand that other owners might not be comfortable. And I definitely get Steve's point.