hi,
hopefully you all can tell me what i need to do and what i did wrong here.
the summary of what has gone on so far: i have a 6 yr old neutered male chi/doxi mix, Beetle, about 12 pounds. he has been the only dog his whole life except for a 4 month period of time when i fostered a GSD mix. during that period of time, Beetle got along with the foster, who was 110% dog-neutral and basically ignored Beetle, who after 2 weeks decided he liked the bigger dog. Beetle has been sort of spoiled but has basic manners and has not been treated like a fragile tiny chihuahua, b/c he is still a dog that has to act appropriately. i make him sit or some "trick" for his meals. i have a fenced yard and am on 20 acres, he doesnt get "walked" per se. but we play fetch and tug w/toys inside with him regularly.

FF to June of this year when i brought Jonah home at 7 weeks. i let Beetle sniff him but he wasnt acting *friendly-interested* but rather *i-want-to-be-top-dog interested*. i kept Jonah in the kitchen and/or crated and/or w/me outside, and i DID read all the e-books on here on pack structure and introducing a new dog. i let Beetle look him over and sniff while the pupppy was crated a number of times. the 2 dogs have never been given any opportunity physically interact b/c i didnt want anyone to get hurt (1st Jonah, now Beetle). at night both are in crates. during the day Jonah goes w/me to wk and Beetle has run of the house.
initially i was afraid Beetle would hurt baby-puppy b/c at first Beetle was bigger. now Jonah is 8 months and WAY bigger. i have been working on getting him dog-neutral/indifferent to dogs which i hoped would carry over to Beetle, but Beetle is being an ass. the truth is i dont know how far he might take it and so far i think he perceives Jonah as being wussy, so he has lately been upping his behavior.

at bed time Jonah gets walked from his kitchen area to his crate, which is in my bedroom, as is Beetle's. at 1st Beetle would stay up on the couch as we went by thru the living rm w/Jonah, but growl. i have let Beetle sniff Jonah and jonah is mildly interested/curious in a positive way & will maintain a sit/heel position and wag his tail calmly and let Beetle sniff him. but he is OBLIVIOUS to the body language Beetle is showing---hackles up, stiff legs. Jonah has no clue. again--i have not let them interact other than this. i wanted to (if anything) err on the side of caution.

when jonah is in the kitchen he leans over the gate to look at Beetle and again, wagging slow and gentle, not worked up and Beetle shows every tooth in his mouth. : / Jonah doesnt respond in any way--i think b/c he doesnt understand it.

but the last 2 nights as i was walking Jonah to his crate, thru the living rm, Beetle is now trying to run up on him from behind and growling aggressively. Jonah is being the "bigger person" here! but of course HE could hurt Beetle at this point.

anyhow----i dont have a reliable sit stay under THAT kind of distraction to try to duplicate a Ceasar M type thing where if Jonah doesnt react then Beetle's bad energy will fizzle out...most times over the last few weeks i would let Beetle outside to potty while i transfrred Jonah from kitchen to crate. upon letting Beetle back in he would RUN into the room and stiff-leggedly look over the fact that Jonah was now crated and then he would walk off.

anyhow....last night not only did Beetle rush up toward Jonah from behind, growling, but as i took a step toward him to back him off (calm and quiet) he leapt into the air and seemed ready to bite ME! i put Jonah back into the kitchen momentarily and calmly said "crate" and Beetle trotted off into his crate, PISSED. again--only calm sensible reaction from Jonah.

ANY tips would be great. in all this time the 2 dogs have never been together at all, one is always with us and one isnt. for sure, it has been Jonah who has had less freedom in the house than Beetle. i was VERY careful not to treat Beetle unfairly by ousting him in any way altho in SOME way i am sure there is a little of that. but nothing in HIS routine has changed. i kept "his" toys separate and didnt let Jonah have them, i didnt change the rules of crating him at night.

so---thats the long story. anything i can do to resolve & end up with them being friendly or even tolerant would be SO wonderful. thanks.

jen

I am reading lots of concern about not letting Beetle be "treated unfairly" but nothing about why he is, for example, allowed on the couch ("at 1st Beetle would stay up on the couch as we went by thru the living rm w/Jonah, but growl.").

Also: "so far i think he perceives Jonah as being wussy, so he has lately been upping his behavior" sounds to me like there's a little humanizing going on here (or a lot) and also that you, the pack leader, are allowing escalating dog-dog aggression.

yes--Connie,
so what do i do?
when i read the "introducing a new dog" ebook here, i got the idea that it was important to not be all playing with new puppy and ignoring the old dog. i wanted to be careful not to do that.
and yes, i do have diff rules for diff dogs. consistently beetle has been allowed on the couch his whole life and consistently jonah has not. i read here that that concept wasnt unreasonable--it's one thing to have a 12 pound chi mix on the couch, but entirely another for a GSD to be up there...? isnt that ok as long as there is consistency?

and YES for the last several days this has gotten unacceptable--hence my post. Beetle has not made any actual physical contact with jonah, but i am sure it would escalte to that if i do nothing. rushing up behind him is an obvious threat.

how can i acclimate them when one would be fine (altho possibly attempt to play) and the other wont be?

when i had the foster, he didnt send mixed messages to Beetle, he was clearly aloof, alpha. Jonah doesnt send that msg and so Beetle thinks he can try to be the Boss.

Jen,

Did you get my PM reply?

Hi Jen, from what I read of Ed's articles, sometimes with some dogs it never does work.
You may have to crate Beetle when walking/or doing anything with Jonah. Right now Jonah is just a pup, but fastforward a year and he may decide to put Beetle in his place, and that would spell disaster.
I have read so many posts from people on another board that lost their little dog to their GSD. It just takes one time, one scrap and the smallest dog is history.

hi,
yes---that is why i have been super conservative---this new rushing up his back side just started and i knew it was unacceptable and indicated things were going downhill.

i just dont know how to proceed from here w/o jeopardizing either dogs' safety. it almost seems like beetle was able to accept an adult dog that was obviously alpha rather than a youngster who beetle thinks he might be able to dominate/intimidate. i dont want to "feed the monster", but am not sure how to DE-escalate the situation.

thx.

there are two of you (humans)?

don't know if this would work, but reading your OP it strikes me that your biggest problem seems to come when you are moving or working with one dog and not able to control the other.

perhaps you could separate them for the time being? or, have beetle tethered to one person and jonah tethered to the other? that way, if you're moving jonah, beetle isn't free to rush jonah.

it would also be an opportunity to teach beetle that calm polite behaviour is expected when jonah is around. whoever he's tethered to could do a training session with beetle when jonah is passing by or nearby, which could help teach him behaviour control, pack structure (i.e., he doesn't get to make the decision about his behaviour, the one he's working with does), and keep his mind occupied.

To be blunt, it sounds like Beetle has little to no respect for you, and therefore, the new dog.

You are not the pack leader in Beetle's eyes, because you have not acted like a pack leader, or expected Beetle to behave in a subordinate manner.

He fancies himself the pack leader, and as such, has taken it upon himself to dominate the new pup.

You need to focus on Pack Structure. Once Beetle understands his role in the pack, you can begin focusing on introducing these two dogs.

If you don't establish normal pack structure with Beetle, he will never be safe around your new pup. It will only take one time of Jonah deciding he's had enough with this little dog getting in his face, and Jonah can kill him. Faster than you can blink.

Additionally, if you continue on this path with Jonah, you will have a dangerous, pushy, aggressive dog. Not such a concern with a small dog like Beetle- but Jonah will not be as small, and could cause serious injury.

I would start by banning Beetle from all furniture, and moving the his crate out of your bedroom.


http://www.leerburg.com/pdf/packstructure.pdf

Jennifer,
there are 3 humans: one adolescent, me and 1 other adult. not sure if either could do it right. but i can try that--its good constructive advice. thank you.

Alyssa,
besides this behavior pertaining to Jonah, Beetle doesnt act like he isnt subordinate. yes, he is allowed on the couch, but he has to be "invited". meaning that he sits at a persons feet and waits till the person says "ok" or pats the couch. then he comes up, and wont if he isnt invited. and he gets off the couch when told, and moves over/yields.

he has never acted aggressive to anyone before. frankly, i am mortified and shocked that he's acting this way. i can take food, toy, bone or bully stick away--no issues, no problems. but this situation is my fault for thinking it wouldnt escalate. but now it has and so i am trying to get instructions on how to fix it.

i hesitated posting this Q b/c all i can post is limited info about the situation, since nobody can actually see it and its easy to jump to a conclusion based on described behavior shown only when interacting with another dog. (now is when somebody will say that probably he shows all SORTS of insubordinate behavior that i just dont "see"--again, i can only tell you that this behavior is isolated to how he acts toward Jonah). and then the assumption that now i must also be raising Jonah to eventually act like Beetle...geez, i can assure you that is not the case. Jonah knows very well his place in the pack. Beetle apparently is confused and i need guidance on how to un-confuse him about what is acceptable behavior around Jonah.

help, advice, suggestions and ideas of where i went wrong are helpful but plz dont make blanket judgments....Beetle has not been around any dogs his whole life at all except the one foster i mentioned. cant any of this be that he has crappy dog social skills? is it possible for a dog to be appropriately subordinate around people, but not around other dogs? does dog-aggression ALWAYS mean that the owner isnt the leader? (not rhetorical questions).

i will re-read the pack structure ebook and articles and reinforce more structure with Beetle and try to see if that knocks him down a few notches (for lack of better term).& i will do the tethering thing.

thx. if anyone has more suggestions--fire away!

 Quote: jennifer kline

yes--Connie, so what do i do?

What I would do is follow the advice in Alyssa's post above this one.