I have a 13 mo. old Dobermann female that I've been training for Schutzhund at the Dobermann Club Group in our area.

The thing is the dog keeps growling on the sleeve and "killing" it.

Yesterday I went to another training group in my area, run by an expert trainer that works mostly with working line GSD and Malis, with some championships on his curriculum.

He told me my dog has been trained in defense 100% and that's why she's not calm on the sleeve and that she should be trained in prey to calm her down and also because that's the main drive to use in sport and that only the bark and hold requires defense.

In other words, that it has been worked the wrong way. I read Mr. Frawley's article "Training in Defense before Prey is Stupid", but I'm not an expert and I didn't know my dog was being work in defense.

When the helper works her in prey she's calm, but when he puts pressure, she gets into defense and starts growling and killing the prey.

Now I think if they've put so much pressure on such a young dog that may have screwd her up.

What do you experts out there think? Should I start working with the GSD group? I think they have a more clear picture of what they're doing.

Thanks for your answers.

Best regards,
Pedro.

I would work with the sport group and learn what you can before going to another protection trainer.

AMEN!!!!!

Steve Cobb

In most cases, a 13 month old female, of any breed, should not be stressed that much in protection. If a dog that age is looking good while in prey, then that is where the dog's training should stay for a while. Being your dog is growling on the sleeve when pressured, I would avoid stressing her for now. You have gone to far to fast with this young bitch most likley.

There are not many females that can tolerate alot of stress at a young age, and in most cases, females can never really handle a ton of pressure when they are older. This is why it is safer to work them in prey. I may get into trouble for this, but with a Doberman, you are better off (regardless of sex) to work them in prey, if you are intending on sport protection work, for the majority of their foundation training and further training. I have not found a Doberman (I have heard of a handfull) that can work in aggression, and not get overly stressed.

Good luck.

Dear Michael,

I think you are right. Also I think I've been lucky this young dog didn't fly, or else she would have been lost for the sport.

The thing is she has better nerve than most Dobermanns around here and that made the trainer eager to put pressure on the dog, since she didn't fly, which is what any other female around here would do.

I several times told him I didn't like the growling and the fact that the bitch was loosing the full bite she had. The trainer told me he was looking for speed and that the dog could correct the bite after she had bitten the sleeve the first time. Also that the growling was there because the dog had a lot of fight (a puppy with a few months only, give me a break)

This guy has been screwing with my dog for 11 months now. That was enough. I'll move on to the GSD people. They have been in this business for 30 years in most cases and, as we say here, "The dummiest one of them can make a watch". They are a SchH team too.

Maybe I'll just take a break for a while and think things over. She needs to work on her tracking a lot, so I'm gonna focus on that for a few weeks (and do it on a regular basis afterwards).

Thanks for your opinion. I really appreciate it. Open for more suggestions.

Take care,
Pedro.

Pedro,
Lewis here, Good answer Pedro,take a break for several reasons!
1. This gives your dobe a break from the stress! and to unwind she sounds a little stressed from what your post if saying.
2. Bond with the dog go back to basics! play tug in prey make it super fun in prey this will calm her down while still working on grip and focus.
You need to keep things simple and fun! give her easy wins and a lot of praise!
3. If your female dobe has very good nerves it won't hurt her to take a break, do some tracking if that's fun for her light motivated obedience I call spontanious obedience 2 or 3 min a couple of times a day. Have her do her exersice correctly with a solid heart felt praise and her reward ie..toy or what ever you use.
I have too tell you this from the heart! Your dobe is your partner and friend the training you do with her is your choice not some dumb ass trainer there not the ones who have to work with or live with your partner! YOU DO! You need too go too the basics prey work, targeting, and 100% confidence building! I strongly beleive that a solid foundation and returning to the basics of training will help you eleveate any problems and if you do face a problem back step in training which alot of people hate to do it seems to hurt their egos well the hell with that, the dog is the main concern.
Remember politics of club trainer and owners egos have no place in dog training!
There are no bad dogs only bad owners, keep it simple re-establish the ground work in all areas of training if need be.
I know I sound alittle repatitious but I can't tell people enough to enjoy training for the both of you. Don't let a time line be a factor you go at the pace appropreate for your partner when she's ready ( by proofing her at each phase of training)you will know and you will see a more quite confident partner. She's your partner you control thr factors of training your dog not someone else if you don't like what's going on stop! Why damage a perfectly good dog for someone elses notch in their belt of training another dog.
There are alot of people on this board who can help you if you have a question or problem that's why we are here use it! Also view Ed's tapes I have almost all of them and I use them everyday to set up that days training or if I have a problem.
Anyway these are my views and opinions if someone else has a better suggstion please post them that's the purpose of this board.
Guys that replied before me way to go sound advice <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Be Safe and enjoy your time with your dobe!

Lewis/Argo and Riley

Yes Pedro, taking a little break will not hurt her. It will take the edge of her complex that this guy has created in bite-work. Being she is above-average, you will most likley see her come around with a break and a fresh prey moving decoy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Many thanks to all of you for your advices. I'll go with what you say. That young dog and I are going to just play for a while. We'll do tracking, obedience, play with the tug and the ball, and she's gonna have no pressure for a loooong time.

I don't know how good she'll ge to be in protection, but I'll always do what's best for her, to the best of my knowledge, ( and to the best of your knowledge too! he, he!)

Thanks again,
Pedro.

I'm stuck with a problem I have never encountered before. My 2 year old is biting, fulling and with commitment, however, there is a problem with pressure (psi). I backed down to an intermediate sleeve where he could really crush it but he seems to bite only as hard as he needs to in order to hold on. I have done the bite and pull thing where the helper leans one way and I the other with dog on leash. He refuses to let go ( we are not puling so hard as he feels he should let go to preserve his teeth)but does not bite any harder, either. I want the harder bite for 100% technical correctness. I feel this is a foundational training issue and am reluctant to progress without seeing a resolution to this problem. I have used frustration as well, and am fearful of using it so extenxsively that he becomes hectic as I have seen with Blacky and Fero offspring. Understanding this may be 50% or more genetic also, I want to exhaust all reasonable methods before I accept what he does as his best effort or my best training. Genetically, he is a Mink greatgrandson from Ed's Otis. Mama has Queck for a grandfather and has Ron Peko Haus on her side as well. Thanks all in advance. Gordo.