Hi. My two half year old rott has had stomach problems for some time, in that his stool is softstart but then very loose. I have been feeding arden grange kibble as my parents use it in their kennels for up to 90 dogs with very little problems.
i also tried royal canin.
A few weeks ago he got a upset stomach, again, and the usual 24 hr fast followed by rice and chiken then kibble wasnt working. the vet and i talked it over and thought protein intolorance maybe? So he went onto royal canin sensative kibble, white fish and tapocia. wow what a difference in his stool, perfect, also his behaviour has improved, alot more friendly and happy.

i would like to switch him to raw, havoe ordered the bookes recomended on this site and have been trawling back through old threads.

I intend to start introducing raw meats again to his kibble, chiken, beefburgers(100%beef), sardines in spring water. these used to be odd treats and he seemed ok with them so now to see if he can handle unprocessed protein, ie not lamb or beef from kibble.

Any thoughts or ideas folks? Am i going down the right path here? Does the vet diagnoses sound correct, seems to be so far.

many thanks.
Andrew

 Quote: andrew rowley

... A few weeks ago he got a upset stomach, again, and the usual 24 hr fast followed by rice and chiken then kibble wasnt working. the vet and i talked it over and thought protein intolorance maybe? So he went onto royal canin sensative kibble, white fish and tapocia. wow what a difference in his stool, perfect .. Does the vet diagnoses sound correct, seems to be so far. ....

Exactly what did "protein intolerance" mean? White fish is a high-protein food, similarly as efficient a protein food as white poultry.

Did the vet mean an allergy to the protein source in his previous food? I don't know what the protein source was in the kibble that you were feeding. But food allergies can be diagnosed only by an elimination diet. Or did s/he mean an intolerance to whatever protein was in the old food?

What was that protein?

General "protein intolerance" doesn't mean much, because what you have done is (maybe) switch protein sources. (I don't even know if you have done that because of not knowing the source in the old kibble.)

So I'd love to help with your question, but it'd be good if we understood what the vet meant.

However, a fresh diet is pretty much universally a better choice, and Royal Canin is not a brand I think much of anyway. JMO. So I'd hesitate about using it as a long-term diet. I think that you are doing well to question it and explore better options.

How long has he been on the "sensitive" formula, and how quickly did his diarrhea stop?

Also, this: "and the usual 24 hr fast followed by rice and chiken then kibble wasnt working" .... does that mean that the rice/chicken did not firm up the poop, or does it mean that it DID, but then the reintroduction of kibble turned it soft again?

P.S. If you will fill us in on the questions above, I know that we can suggest a very slow, safe, gradual switch for a dog with sensitive-stomach issues.

Hi Connie,

Lamb Meal* (min 30%), Whole Grain Rice (min 26%), Whole Grain Maize, Chicken Fat*, Beet Pulp, Dried Brewers Yeast, Egg Powder, Fish Meal*, Linseed, Fish Oil*, Minerals, Vitamins, Nucleotides, Prebiotic FOS, Prebiotic MOS, Cranberry Extract, Chondroitin Sulphate, Glucosamine Sulphate, MSM, Yucca Extract. * Preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract.

Typical Analysis

Protein 25%, Oil 16%, Fibre 2%, Ash 6%, Moisture 8%, Omega6 3.5%, Omega3 0.4%, Vitamin A 15000 IU/kg, Vitamin D3 1500 IU/kg, Vitamin E 80 IU/kg, Calcium 1.53%, Phosphorous P 1.1%, Copper 20 mg/kg (as Cupric Sulphate).

Ok im not sure what all that means. i think the vet was meaning an elimination diet but was sure it was the the protein source. im a bit out of my depth understanding all this so please bare with me.

Oh and the chicken and rice did firm up his first movment but the second would be very soft to loose. This went on for nearly a week. The firmer movments would have a light coating of blood on occasion!
I tried reading up on large vs small intestine disorders EPI, ibd and so on but it all appeared contradictory and he could have fallen into several categories. The vet wasnt intersted in my descriptions of his stool or photos, something i thought was a little worrying actually.

 Quote: andrew rowley

... Lamb Meal* (min 30%), Whole Grain Rice (min 26%), Whole Grain Maize, Chicken Fat*, Beet Pulp, Dried Brewers Yeast, Egg Powder, Fish Meal*, i think the vet was meaning an elimination diet but was sure it was the the protein source. ...

Here's a quick-and-dirty explanation of why that switch recommendation doesn't make sense (for either an allergy OR an intolerance of protein), except maybe as a stab in the dark:

In that partial ingredient list above are several protein sources: lamb, rice, beet pulp, corn, egg, and fish. These all contain protein.

If there was a suspected allergy or intolerance, the logical thing would be to switch to a limited-ingredient diet containing none of the suspected ingredients ... containing no food that the dog had ever eaten if there was a suspected allergy, in fact, since allergies develop over repeated exposure, but certainly containing none of the protein foods that the dog may have an intolerance to.

But as you see, the switch was from a food containing fish to a food containing fish.

The only thing that has been indicated now is that fish probably was not a troublesome ingredient for this individual dog. Nothing has been learned about his tolerance of lamb, rice, corn, beet pulp, or eggs.

It will tell us/me a lot if you let us know how long it took on the new food for the poops to become good, and also how long the dog has now been having normal poops on the new food.

Also, this: "and the usual 24 hr fast followed by rice and chiken then kibble wasnt working" .... does that mean that the rice/chicken did not firm up the poop, or does it mean that it DID, but then the reintroduction of kibble turned it soft again?

Also, does the vet sell the new food, by any chance? Or did s/he just recommend any limited-ingredient food with fish as the protein source?

P.S. Trust me. We'll get there.

I'm going backward to figure out what kind of intolerance the vet suspected, and also what the timing on the diarrhea diet and the new kibble diet tell us.

Hi, 48 hrs for the stool to firm up. Been two weeks without incident.

Rice and chiken was firm but the kibble would result in soft and loose.

and yes, the vet sells the food. i can source it on line, same cost. http://www.royalcanin.co.uk/PDF/sensitivity_control.pdf

OK, that explains the choice of new food. It made no sense otherwise to switch from a food with fish to a food with fish if a suspected protein intolerance or allergy was going on. (An elimination diet NEVER includes a protein that the dog was already eating.)

My personal opinion of that brand of food is not high.

BUT I would still keep the dog on it now for a full three weeks and watch for any of the old symptoms. Then I'd make the transition to fresh raw food extremely gradually, which we can guide you through, since the dog has a sensitive GI system.

I do think that your intention to go raw is good. Very good. I don't think it should be done by introducing raw items to the bowl of kibble, though, as you mentioned.

So I'd go another full week on this food, watching his poop. Then I would start with small frequent one-ingredient meals,watch the poop, add another ingredient, keep meals small, watch poop, etc. It will take a few days but will be well worth it because there will be no mystery about which item causes a problem (if any does).

All JMO.

 Quote: connie sutherland

since allergies develop over repeated exposure,

 Quote: connie sutherland

Then I would start with small frequent one-ingredient meals,watch the poop, add another ingredient, keep meals small, watch poop, etc. It will take a few days but will be well worth it because there will be no mystery about which item causes a problem (if any does).

Question for you, Connie, and one that I've been meaning to ask for awhile. Since the allergies can develop after repeated exposure, how can you be sure that none of the things added in to the new diet won't cause a problem down the road, after more exposure? I guess what I'm trying to ask is, how long does the dog have to have been eating a certain ingredient before you can be reasonably sure that it's not going to be an allergy of the "repeated exposure" type?

Hope I'm not hijacking, but it seemed to fit the topic. Thanks.