Matthew Grubb wrote 01/04/2009 11:20 PM Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... #222411 - 01/04/2009 11:20 PM
Matthew Grubb Webboard User Reg: 09-27-2002 Posts: 637 Loc: Pittsburgh, Pa. Offline	I got Ed’s Marker Training DVD and am now hooked on marker training….. and VERRY interested in marker training in PSD work. I see so many problems that would not be if a “marker foundation” were used. Now for the question…. Is anyone charging the mark with a toy instead of a food reward? How did you go about doing this? http://www.NAPWDA.com
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Guest1 wrote 01/05/2009 06:56 AM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Matthew Grubb ] #222416 - 01/05/2009 06:56 AM
Guest1 Webboard User Reg: 07-17-2002 Posts: 860 Loc: Iowa Offline	No difference. Food is nice just because of the sheer amount of reps you can condense into a given time for a dog not fluent in the process. But if you have a dog which isn't naive to a "break" or general release command, I'm guessing it wouldn't take long to turn that into the marker itself. And since the marker is a concept anyway, no reason you can't do both.
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Lynne Barrows wrote 01/05/2009 09:23 AM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Guest1 ] #222434 - 01/05/2009 09:23 AM
Lynne Barrows Webboard User Reg: 09-22-2007 Posts: 2531 Loc: S. Florida Offline	I think it may be easier to charge the marker if you use food initially, and then transfer the concept to a toy. Anyway, that's how I did it with my dog. Once she understood that 'Yes!' meant a reward was coming, it was easy to change the reward to a ball toss or tug, or whatever...
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Amber Morgan wrote 01/05/2009 09:42 AM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Guest1 ] #222439 - 01/05/2009 09:42 AM
Amber Morgan Webboard User Reg: 10-18-2006 Posts: 1849 Loc: St. Louis, MO Offline	I use both and have for quite awhile now, for different situations. My dogs know that the mark means a reward, whatever that reward is...food or a ball or a tug. Looking back on it, for Carbon, the mark as a reward concept was introduced with food only since I started marking training when he was an 8 week old pup. During narcotic training at Triple Crown, we used a mark and toy reward exclusively, but during the official markers class we used food. When training for the BH, I used both. Obviously, we taught the out using a toy reward and not food. But again, for all the dogs there, the mark was initially charged with food. I would guess that toy crazy dogs could pick it up using balls just as easily (look how quickly they learn the word "ball" ) but I think it's a little easier to start out with food. Carbon
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Cindy Easton Rhodes wrote 01/05/2009 09:46 AM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Lynne Barrows ] #222440 - 01/05/2009 09:46 AM
Cindy Easton Rhodes Moderator Reg: 07-14-2001 Posts: 2069 Loc: Wisconsin Offline	I use both. Food for the preliminary charging of the mark and teaching of new concepts. I then use food to reward and randomly use the toy. My current working dog would much rather have a toy than food, so when he's learning something I can use food and then when he gives a really great effort or finally gets something right that he's struggled with I pop out the toy and you can see his little brain say OH OK! NOW I REALLY GET IT! I use different value rewards (both different food and different toys)for different exercises and try to vary that to keep my dog trying at a high level of intensity. I think trainers that only use toys or only use food are missing out on tools that can really help your dog connect the dots. Cindy cindyr@leerburg.com
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Matthew Grubb wrote 01/05/2009 11:19 AM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Cindy Easton Rhodes ] #222462 - 01/05/2009 11:19 AM
Matthew Grubb Webboard User Reg: 09-27-2002 Posts: 637 Loc: Pittsburgh, Pa. Offline	I started going back to some basic PSD problem solving and am trying to address them with marker work. With my own dog I’ve been unknowingly using an incorrect marker method… On a repetitive “bite-out-down” exercise for example I would issue the command to out…. When all four elbows hit the ground I would say “yes” and then I would say “free” to release and reward the dog and start the exercise again. I see now that I was adding some confusion and am now fixing it by going back to basics “charging the mark”. I could see that the connection between the action and the reward just wasn’t there. I asked the question because the timing and repetition are so important with charging the mark that it seems like it would be EXTREEMLY difficult to do with a toy reward. http://www.NAPWDA.com
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Connie Sutherland wrote 01/05/2009 12:20 PM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Matthew Grubb ] #222468 - 01/05/2009 12:20 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: matthew grubb ... I asked the question because the timing and repetition are so important with charging the mark that it seems like it would be EXTREEMLY difficult to do with a toy reward. Yes, I'm with you. Then later on, as Bob Scott said last year when I worked with a motley crew of various-breed, various-age, various-everything seizure-alert dogs, "the dog will tell you" what his best currency is. I found out just how individual this is. Food worked wonderfully for charging the marker and for teaching the simple new behaviors. It was also easy to handle and portable, easy to keep out of sight, and so on. Later on when a dog would, as Cindy said, "finally get something right that he's struggled with," well, their super rewards varied from food jackpots to a big belly-rub to a favorite toy or ball, just as the group varied from Goldens to Borders to a GSD to a "what the heck IS that". As a little side note, marker training made working in one room with seven dogs and very little opportunity for separation in training almost easy.
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John DeKruyff wrote 01/07/2009 07:22 PM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Matthew Grubb ] #222891 - 01/07/2009 07:22 PM
John DeKruyff Webboard User Reg: 08-14-2001 Posts: 238 Loc: California Offline	you probably already realized this, but you can just use the word "free" as your marker (because that is when your dog gets the reward) and just get rid of the word yes.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 01/07/2009 07:36 PM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: John DeKruyff ] #222894 - 01/07/2009 07:36 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: john dekruyff you probably already realized this, but you can just use the word "free" as your marker (because that is when your dog gets the reward) and just get rid of the word yes. You could if you were pretty confident that you'd remember to use that word as your marker all the time.
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Matthew Grubb wrote 01/07/2009 11:22 PM Re: Charging The Mark With A Toy Reward...... [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #222949 - 01/07/2009 11:22 PM
Matthew Grubb Webboard User Reg: 09-27-2002 Posts: 637 Loc: Pittsburgh, Pa. Offline	I used the word free for what I deemed the end of the exercise…. It’s the word that means “you can go do whatever you want”. If were playing Chuck-it you have to return the ball to me right away because were playing together under my rules. If I were to say “free” he would immediately veer away to go pee or lay down and chew on his ball. Again… my bad for misunderstanding how markers worked. The only issue I’m having now if that the true understanding of “yes” as a marker still hasn’t sunk in. For example…. We were playing “the platz game” with a tug the other day… working him on the tug toy…. “Platz…. (all 4 elbows down)… Yes” then the game restarts. At one point I threw the tug about 10 feet away while he was in his down… “good, good…..yes” He got…went about 3 feet, laid back down, and wouldn’t move. It will take time. I’m already seeing enough benefit to make me happy! http://www.NAPWDA.com
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