I have 4 dogs. 3 dogs I trained with the leash and collar method.
My puppy (11 mo. old) was trained with marker training.

My leash and collar trained dogs listen great.They rarely break a command and I hardly ever have to give them a correction for anything.

My puppy however, knows sit and down well. My problem is with her stay. When I give her the command she usually obeys the first time. When I am reinforcing the stay, I consistantly have to hold my hand in front of her face and tell her stay over and over again. With my leash and collar training, stay is automatically "built in" so to speak. They break the command, they get corrected with the prong collar.I don't have to tell them stay...ever. They automatically do it. When I go to reward the puppy and reach behind my back into my bait bag, she will sometimes break the command because she is excited about her reward. This is why I have always been opposed to training with treats. Should I switch the mark to the clicker? And if so, what about her food reward. Take away the reward, what is the incentive?

I have tried throwing the treat between her legs on the floor when she is in a down position, like Ed does in his video. Well, that does not work with this dog, she breaks her command every time with that method.She listens great, she just cannot hold a stay for a significant amount of time. I start my beginning agility class tommorrow. Any suggestions on how to reinforce her stay?

your dog doesn't understand the mark then. if your dog is moving when you reach for the treat, then your timing has been such that to your dog, hand reaching for treats=exercise over.

repeating stay, stay, stay is unnecessary and has made the word meaningless to your dog. Duration is build not by a release, but by giving the dog information that you like what they are doing (ie staying)

there is nothing wrong with training with treats, but there is a method to it. the techniques you are describing are not really marker training. I'm not sure you really understand it, based on your post.

have you watched the marker dvd?

Hi Cindy,

Yes, I watched the DVD and read the article several times on marker training. I obviously have done something wrong along the way.

The exercise is not over though when I am reaching for the treat.I continue to keep her in the down and reward occasionally, is that maybe my problem?

I only repeat the word stay when she breaks her command. IE: If she breaks her command, I say Down/stay, then I am quiet and will occasionally toss a treat saying good, while she is still in command. Then if she breaks the command, I will say down/stay. When I see her start to get up I will say, no...stay. I don't stand there saying stay-stay-stay-stay. (Does that make sense?)

I am not sue I understand you when you say she doesn't understand the mark? Could you elaborate? Don't get me wrong, she is very good at her commands, she just can't stay long.

Thanks!

 Quote: lisa harrison

. When I give her the command she usually obeys the first time. When I am reinforcing the stay, I consistantly have to hold my hand in front of her face and tell her stay over and over again.

When I go to reward the puppy and reach behind my back into my bait bag, she will sometimes break the command because she is excited about her reward. This is why I have always been opposed to training with treats.

You say right in your post here, you say STAY over and over?

 Quote: lisa harrison

Should I switch the mark to the clicker? And if so, what about her food reward. Take away the reward, what is the incentive?

What is the connection? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm lost. The clicker functions exactly the way the verbal marker does.

Could you walk us through a very simple new command.... say, "sit." How do you mark and reward a sit after you have just taught it, and now you command and the dog complies?

As far as "take away the food reward, what is the incentive" goes, there's material in both the video and the article about phasing out the food rewards, but you seem to be equating it with switching from verbal marker to clicker..... ??

And last, the duration in the command is built up gradually, but first I hope to maybe untangle what seems to be basic marker use. I could be wrong! We might just be using different words.

I agree that she doesn't understand the mark.

Weird...it just said the post I was replying to had been deleted.

Ok, try again.

Lisa, you have conditioned your dog to break repeatedly because you are marking the end of the exercise, AND you are repeating the command w/your hand in front of her face. She doesn't know she's supposed to stay and hold; she thinks she's doing the right thing by staying, moving, hearing the command again, and repeating.

I know zilch about marker training, but I do know that repeating a command is not the way to go, and a telltale sign your dog doesn't understand or doesn't respect you. In this case, it's misunderstanding.

I say a command once, then correct immediately if not obeyed. Marking a stay, I would think, would only occur at the end of the exercise, which is how your puppy is interpreting your actions. I put mine back exactly where they were before they broke the stay until they learn that stay means stay there until I tell you differently...as all commands should.

Edited by Jenni Williams (01/10/2009 11:50 AM)
Edit reason: didn't mean to reply to Connie

OK, this is how I taught the down. I give the down command.Once her body hits the floor, I say yes and reward with a treat. Ok, she knows down, so if she breaks her command, say when I walk away, I will say "no down". If she lays down again I will say yes and reward with a treat. If I see her starting to break the command,I will say "no stay". Not if she actually breaks the command, but if I tell she is starting to get up.

 Quote: lisa harrison

OK, this is how I taught the down. I give the down command.Once her body hits the floor, I say yes and reward with a treat. Ok, she knows down, so if she breaks her command, say when I walk away, I will say "no down". If she lays down again I will say yes and reward with a treat. If I see her starting to break the command,I will say "no stay". Not if she actually breaks the command, but if I tell she is starting to get up.

I have to go train, but back soon. Real quick, though, when you gave the terminal bridge (marker), you ended the command. Duration is added gradually before the TB, not after.

Hmmm, I do it differently. I only use the command word again when I reinforce (ie, "sit," "good sit"). If they break, it's a stern "pfui!" then I replace them where they were, in that position and only then would I use the command word again. I wonder if she isn't getting confused because you say, for example, "stay" whether she's staying or not?!