Hello All,

I'm new here, I did search for the answer to this question but did not turn up an answer.

I have a 4 month old boxer. I have watched both "Puppy 8 Weeks/8 Months" and "Basic Dog Obedience". The training methodology does work and it's quite encouraging to a beginner like me.

I only give the puppy corrections for failing to come...as stated in the articles and videos. He currently wears a flat leather collar, and he's a fairly hard dog (in my opinion). He responds to the quick pop, I praise, I reward...I hope I'm doing the right thing by popping at a young age...but I am 110% sure that he knows the command, he just fails to mind occasionally.

One thing that was not addressed in the video was when is the ideal time to consider a prong collar? I know that no serious training should be done at too young of an age, so I have been working sit, down and come. Come is very important.

But at the same time, when you look at the phases.
Learning
Distraction/Correction

If the puppy/dog knows the command, and you are confident that he knows the command...when do you begin corrections? Are flat-leather collar corrections sufficient for a puppy who knows the command but refuses to mind? When are flat-leather collars no longer used for corrections? Perhaps when the puppy becomes immune to a standard pop?

Any guidelines/insight you can give me on this I'd really appreciate. I'm just trying to do the right thing here and do what's right for the dog so that he is well behaved.

With my own dog, I was working her with the prong at 6 months of age. It really does depend on the individual dog, but if I were you I would go ahead and get the collar and start putting it on him so he gets used to wearing it. Of course, try not to get into the habit of putting it on right before training and then taking it off right after training or he will become collarwise. There's almost nothing worse than a collarwise dog! Put it on him at least 10 minutes before you start training, and leave it on him at least 10 minutes after you're finished (under supervision, of course - training collars should never be left on an unattended dog).

At this stage, I think you're fine to continue using just the flat collar; he's still a bit young to be taking prong corrections. I would wait until he's obeying the commands pretty reliably (3 out of 4 times) before starting to use the prong. Once he's following the commands at least 2 our of 3 times you give it to him, he knows what it means. Corrections are introduced when the dog knows what the command means, to let him know that he has to obey every time you tell him to sit, or down, or come, or whatever. He has to learn that it isn't a decision that he can make; he either obeys or he gets a correction. I give a 2 second leeway from the time I say the command. If the dog isn't at least trying to do what I've told him to do within 2 seconds, then that's when I correct him with a verbal NO and a leash pop. This also allows you to see whether or not he really DOES understand what the command means. If he just sits there and looks at you when you say "sit", he probably doesn't know what sit means yet, and so he wouldn't be ready for a prong correction just yet.

Start out with the leash attached to both rings (or the 'dead ring' as shown on http://www.leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm). You will also have to be careful not to pop too hard, because the sensation will be completely different to your dog.

I know other members will be able to give you far more insight, but I have explained what worked for me.

Kristen

Wow, thanks for the insight...you did tell me alot.

Also, my wife was wondering with the prong collar, could you leave it on 24-7 or would it be uncomfortable for the dog? I would have no problems leaving it on the dog all the time.

Last (and just as a side note)--I posted over at Boxerworld about Leerburg training because I am thoroughly impressed with how well it's working for me thus far...but also the dogs on the video...AMAZING.

Well I guess the fine Mods on Boxerworld...are Nazis. They acted like using a prong was going to permanently hurt the dog...it is a dog after all...but I didn't know it was so controversial.

Oh well, I gave them a challenge...if anyone can SHOW me a method that works better than what Mr. Frawley demonstrates, I'm all ears. After all, the only difference here is when the dog knows the command and doesn't mind it receives a physical and verbal correction...right?

I wonder what THEY do when their dog decides not to mind...those are the idiots standing there screaming for their dog to come....not me.

I know what you mean about other places. Most people are completely ignorant when it comes to dog training and the equipment used. Prong collars are extremely controversial. I've actually been banned from three online groups because I use one.

Here's a really good website for you to give them to look at: http://www.dru.org/prongcollar.htm

Also, invite them to put a choke chain around their thigh and give themselves (or have someone else give them) a correction as if they were correcting a dog, and then do the same with a correctly fitted prong collar. I can guarantee that the choke chain will not only hurt more, it will probably pinch their leg at the ring and leave a blood blister/bruise for days (as it did me when I tried it).


DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES LEAVE A PRONG COLLAR, CHOKE CHAIN, OR ANY OTHER TRAINING COLLAR ON A DOG 24/7. They should be put on, as I said, about 10 minutes before training starts and removed about 10 minutes after training ends. They are not designed to be left on the dog, and can even be deadly.

Kristen,

Thanks again <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I actually just read that article you posted in another thread on the Prong Collar section. I'll make sure I don't keep it on him for prolonged periods and I'll have to get one soon.

Good luck! I would recommend either a size small or medium for a boxer

 Quote:

I would wait until he's obeying the commands pretty reliably (3 out of 4 times) before starting to use the prong. Once he's following the commands at least 2 our of 3 times you give it to him, he knows what it means. Corrections are introduced when the dog knows what the command means, to let him know that he has to obey every time you tell him to sit, or down, or come, or whatever. He has to learn that it isn't a decision that he can make; he either obeys or he gets a correction.

So irregardless of Ed's advice on "Your Puppy 8 weeks to 8 months"...Having a 4 month old puppy, who KNOWS SIT and sometimes decides he's not going to---he rates a correction? And I'm not a shitty handler for giving him one to a 4 month old pup?

I don't understand your question.

On corrections. Ed says on the 8 weeks to 8 months video that puppies should only be corrected for failing to come, not sit or down or any other commands.

But then on his other video basic dog obedience he says if the dog knows the command and fails to obey, he should receive a correction.

Are 4 month old puppies exempt under the first statement (8 weeks to 8 months?) Even when they know a command.

I guess what I'm asking is...Sulli' knows COME, he also knows SIT...is giving him a correction although he is only 4 months old for SIT wrong? And if it is wrong for me to correct him at 4 months...how old should he be?

I'm figuring you're going to say 4 months old is fine if he knows the command...because at 6 months you started prong. I just want to make absolutely sure I'm doing the right thing.

Sulli' is fairly hard as far as I can tell, so I do have some leeway because of this I think.

Ohh ok. Gotcha! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Like I said before; it all depends on the dog. I started at 12 weeks teaching my dog her commands, so by 6 months she was more than ready to start getting physical corrections.

If you've been using food, will he sit every time you tell him to if you have a treat in your hand? Automatically sitting just because he knows you have a treat, but before you tell him to doesn't count. I wouldn't start throwing in corrections just yet. Start out by gradually phasing out the treats first. For example, spend 15-30 minutes a day practicing the sit command for 1 week. Use a treat each time - along with verbal praise. I like to use Pup-peroni because you can hold a whole stick in your hand and have the end just barely sticking out between your thumb and index finger. That way, he can nibble at the treat, but he isn't going to get fat off of them because he's really only getting a taste of the treat.
Then, the next week, continue the same way, but only give him a treat every other time. Give verbal praise every time. The next week, start giving treats sporadically, with verbal praise every time. The first time, give him a treat and verbal praise, the second time, give him a treat and verbal praise, the third and fourth times, only give him verbal praise, the fifth time, give him a treat and verbal praise, the sixth and seventh times, only give him verbal praise, continue like that and see how he does. Be sure to really ham up the praise on the times that you do not give a treat. Even take it as far as when you tell him to sit and praise him without giving a treat, after you praise him, play with him for a few minutes before asking him to sit again. If you make training fun, he will learn more quickly. Once he's up to sitting every time you tell him to, without getting a treat at least 5 times in a row, you can start using leash corrections when he disobeys. Start out with the leash attached to the flat collar, but also start putting the prong collar on him about 10 minutes before you start training so he gets used to wearing it. If he doesn't respond to the corrections with the flat collar, start using the prong, but hook the leash to the "dead ring", and know that you won't have to correct nearly as hard as you did with the flat collar to get the same reaction. Leave the prong on him for at least 10 minutes after you finish training, so he doesn't become "collarwise" and learn that he only has to obey when he's wearing it.

You should only be correcting 1/4 of the time or less. The rest of the time you should be praising and/or treating. If you're having to correct him every other time, or even every third or fourth time, then in my opinion, you're going too fast and you need to go back to motivational teaching, because it's still unclear to him what it is you want, exactly.