Edit: I put this in puppy forum because of the "nipping problems" rather than because of my dog's age. Mods should move as they see fit.

Some background is in order, I think:

Casey, my 4 year old shepherd mix (I actually think she's an Australian Kelpie, but whatever) and I moved to the Denver area. New roommate has two dogs, both German Shorthair Pointers, and I took great care to introduce the dogs to each other following pack structure rules, etc. None of the dogs are "favored" by me or by the roommate. We enforce strict rules on feeding, play, who sleeps where, etc. I believe I've done well with blending of the two packs (but I could be wrong.)

Here's my problem: We have a large open space area a few blocks away, and both I and roommate will take all three dogs over there for some exercise, walks, and a rousing game of fetch. Casey has recently begun to nip at the other two if they make it to the tennis ball first. No blood drawn (yet?) but a definite bark and a nip. I can shout "NO" and she'll back up, but I am concerned about giving a command that I could not enforce when she's 100 feet away. She does not do this when they're playing in the back yard or living room, only during fetch.

So, I query the wisdom of the group: Is this a pack structure problem, in that Casey sees herself higher in rank than the other two dogs? Or is it her natural herding instinct, to nip and and try to round up other animals that are running? Further, and perhaps most crucial, is how do I fix it? My gut tells me this is an ideal situation for a remote e-collar, but I want some input before I shell out (hard earned and limited) funds for a collar, when a cheaper method would do.

Y'all have at it. I'm taking notes. And, as always, mucho thanks.

Just to be clear: You toss a ball and send all three after it?

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Just to be clear: You toss a ball and send all three after it?

Yes, ma'am.

I'd say that for them, it's not a good plan, then.

JMO.

My own feeling is that it's leading your dogs somewhere you don't want them to go.

It could work with some groups of dogs. But if this was an outcome for mine, I'd stop doing it. I say who gets the toys. Not the dog(s). I'd arrange the game differently.

 Quote: jeff brosius

Casey has recently begun to nip at the other two if they make it to the tennis ball first.

Does she nip their hindquarters, where a herding dog usually goes for a "roundup", or does she go for a neck or face nip, which presumably could be to get them to drop/back away from "her" ball? You didn't mention resource/object guarding in your list of possible motivations (which wouldn't necessarily mean she thought she was top rank, just possessive) - did you not consider it, or do you not think that's what it looks like?

Either way, I'm going to follow up Connie's question by saying - actively playing fetch with more than one of these dogs might not be a good idea. Some dogs might be really laid back about it, but others aren't. The same thing that makes a fanatic ball chasing dog so fanatic *can* also make them possessive over the ball... which could lead to "arguments" when more than one dog gets to the ball at once. Have you tried going out with 3 balls, placing the dogs in a sit or down and systematically throwing each ball for each dog in a different direction (releasing only one dog at a time)? JMO (I don't have a dog who gives a rats bum about ball chasing), but I'd try not to psych all three dogs up about one object and then set them loose to decide who gets it...

~Natalya

Edited by Natalya Zahn (01/27/2009 07:07 PM)
Edit reason: Connie beat me to it!

 Quote: Natalya Zahn

I'd try not to psych all three dogs up about one object and then set them loose to decide who gets it... ~Natalya

There ya go. Much better said.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

... I'd arrange the game differently. ...

 Quote: Natalya Zahn

Have you tried going out with 3 balls, placing the dogs in a sit or down and systematically throwing each ball for each dog in a different direction (releasing only one dog at a time)?

Ah. At least I can still copy and paste, even if I can't set forth a coherent alternative all by myself.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Ah. At least I can still copy and paste, even if I can't set forth a coherent alternative all by myself.

Oh, but you're the INSPIRATION Connie!

~Natalya

Before I was finished with your post I thought, this is a Kelpie, a herding dog, herding. My bf has a kelpie (I'm 99% sure its what you have from the picture) and she's a mad lady when it comes to herding other dogs. She makes my guy crazy. The other dogs (roommates) are going crazy and running away from her, her instincts kick in. I would think at this point she is more interested in herding than the ball (maybe, you tell me)

I agree that you should think about arranging the game differently, maybe throw her fav ball in another direction after the other two have gone after the first ball, working on both her wait skills and shifting her focus onto you.



As a side note: when my bf first got his kelpie she was a puppy at a shelter in WY. He was told by the 'owner' (owner surrendered the litter) that she was a gsd/rottie. He was psyched to get a 70+ lb 'tough' dog. I find it hilarious that she's a 45lb kelpie instead of a 95lb rottie .

My thanks to all for the input. I hadn't really considered resource/object guarding, but that's a fine thought.

The nips are usually to the back half... hind quarters, etc. That's what makes me think "herding drive" (if there is such a thing) rather than out and out aggression.

Jennifer: Yeah, that's what a lot of folks think of Casey... "Shepherd/Rottie mix... cute puppy, how old?" When I reply "4 years or so, and she's a Kelpie", I get a lot of blank looks.

P.S. Jennifer, where in Colorado? Know any good trainers in the Denver area?

Again, my thanks to everyone.