John Lawson wrote 02/03/2009 05:20 AM Bite bar or sleeve #226232 - 02/03/2009 05:20 AM
John Lawson Webboard User Reg: 02-02-2009 Posts: 6 Loc: Offline	Hi. I have an 6 month amstaff bitch, and I'm planing to do schutzhund with her if she has the necessary temperament. She has very high prey drive, but won't know about defence drive until she's older. I'm planing to take her through the first steps using prey drive, before involving a helper to work her in defence. So the question is: should I start with a bite bar (http://leerburg.com/800.htm) or skip that and go straight to a sleeve? I already have her attacking tug toys on command and releasing on command. A bit about me; I have had several dogs before although this is my first bull and terrier type (had shepherd and hunting breeds before) and I have worked as a helper in mondioring and shutzhund before, but never trained my own dog. About my amstaff; she's looking to be a huge girl as she's already 20" at the shoulders and weighs about 53 pounds. She's quite light in chest and shoulder area at the moment but has really powerful hind legs. Cheers, John
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Mike J Schoonbrood wrote 02/03/2009 05:22 PM Re: Bite bar or sleeve [Re: John Lawson ] #226352 - 02/03/2009 05:22 PM
Mike J Schoonbrood Webboard User Reg: 04-30-2005 Posts: 2784 Loc: Toronto, ON Offline	6 months is pretty young for a hard bite bar like that. I'd consider going with an intermediate sleeve.
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John Lawson wrote 02/04/2009 04:51 AM Re: Bite bar or sleeve [Re: Mike J Schoonbrood ] #226403 - 02/04/2009 04:51 AM
John Lawson Webboard User Reg: 02-02-2009 Posts: 6 Loc: Offline	Thanks, I think I'll go for the the frabo no6 young adult sleeve. I've only heard good things about it, do you have any experience using it? She's the first young dog I'm training with a sleeve.
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David Snellbaker wrote 02/04/2009 12:46 PM Re: Bite bar or sleeve [Re: John Lawson ] #226430 - 02/04/2009 12:46 PM
David Snellbaker Webboard User Reg: 10-17-2008 Posts: 77 Loc: Claremont, California, USA Offline	Hi, I'm new to protection sport myself so I'm no expert . But one thing I've heard is that you shouldn't train your own dog to bite a sleeve with you in it because you will lessen the intensity of the bite. David S.
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John Lawson wrote 02/04/2009 01:45 PM Re: Bite bar or sleeve [Re: David Snellbaker ] #226441 - 02/04/2009 01:45 PM
John Lawson Webboard User Reg: 02-02-2009 Posts: 6 Loc: Offline	As far as I know, you should never train your own dog in defence drive, but prey drive is ok. The sleeve is just another tug toy, when you train your own dog. The helper is the one that will bring out the fire in the dog.
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Mike J Schoonbrood wrote 02/04/2009 02:08 PM Re: Bite bar or sleeve [Re: John Lawson ] #226443 - 02/04/2009 02:08 PM
Mike J Schoonbrood Webboard User Reg: 04-30-2005 Posts: 2784 Loc: Toronto, ON Offline	I'm not big on people doing any bitework with their own dog unless they know how to read the dog. If the work is correct then it doesn't matter who the decoy in the foundation stages. Key words: "If the work is correct." Most get it wrong.
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John Lawson wrote 02/04/2009 02:25 PM Re: Bite bar or sleeve [Re: Mike J Schoonbrood ] #226445 - 02/04/2009 02:25 PM
John Lawson Webboard User Reg: 02-02-2009 Posts: 6 Loc: Offline	As I mentioned earlier I have done quite a bit of sleeve/suit work before, this is just the first time I'm starting from scratch. I've worked her with different tug toys, ropes, leather rags and jute tugs, since she was a wee pup. I feel she's ready work the sleeve, and will start by using the sleeve as another tug toy, possible on a rope to get her drive going. She's keen as hell to hit any tugging object. I'm a the point were she knows the out command a releases right away and most of the time doesn't grab a toy I'm holding before I command.
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Mike J Schoonbrood wrote 02/04/2009 03:20 PM Re: Bite bar or sleeve [Re: John Lawson ] #226464 - 02/04/2009 03:20 PM
Mike J Schoonbrood Webboard User Reg: 04-30-2005 Posts: 2784 Loc: Toronto, ON Offline	Watch the young control work on the bully breeds. They can look real impressive but can turn to crap when too controlled.
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John Lawson wrote 02/04/2009 03:40 PM Re: Bite bar or sleeve [Re: Mike J Schoonbrood ] #226469 - 02/04/2009 03:40 PM
John Lawson Webboard User Reg: 02-02-2009 Posts: 6 Loc: Offline	Ok. Thanks for the advice. Been surprised how easy OB training and all other training's been so far, her litter mates have not been so easy I've heard. Been using mostly motivational training, she loves playing tug-of-war( will even leave food to play) and happily works for her play.
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