Falcon is six months old and knows the command "out". When I use treats, he spits it out 10/10 times. (I say "yes!" and give a high value treat such as raw meat or cut up string cheese).

If treats are not being used, he will stand there "mouthing" the tennis ball. I've turned my back on him but he continues mouthing. I've calmly said noooo... but he continues mouthing. So far the only way to get the ball back once he starts this mouthing is to press his jaws open and manually remove the ball, but I know that is not the right solution.

What do I need to do differently? Is putting him back in the crate for a few minutes the right thing at this point? Is there an appropriate correction which should be done at the point/place/moment he does not "out"?

Many thanks!
Barbara

Hi Barbera

Sounds to me like you need to correct him for this. If he's learned the basics and knows out, and out's for a treat then he is just refusing to out for you!

He needs to understand that there are consequences for not obeying a know command.

2 cents

Would the appropriate correction be a "pop" with the leash / prong collar? The flat collar has no effect what so ever on this guy...

Thanks John!

Hey Barbara, my dog started outing nicely when I started giving him an immediate re-bite. No corrections. A tug or an orbee on rope works good.

I'll give the "re-bite" option another try. I attempted it the other day with a tug but was not successful - however I felt it may have been more my not presenting/handling it correctly. Thanks Steve!

I have had the same problem. I am by no means an expert but…Have you tried using two balls? That is how I had to train the aus command (she will not eat when toys are in the equation). It is explained in the Basic Obedience DVD if you have it. Anyways, you could give that a try, just don’t throw the second ball until he drops the first ball. I had to back up my training the aus command because I did not follow through at the correction phase (your dog might be little young for corrections) so I went back to the two ball game not saying anything at all, just letting her retrieve the ball, bring it back, I would show her the second ball, then throw it right after she dropped the first ball. Just be a little careful not to move your arm to throw the second ball until he drops the second ball. They will catch on to your body language, and not catch on to your command, in this case I added the command after she learned what she had to do. Once he is catching on that you will throw the other ball when he drops the first one try to show he the second ball and wait till he drops the other ball, pick it up and throw it again, mix it up every once in a while so he doesn’t catch on. I did try to let my dog re-bite when she let go but that did lead to another problem, I assume I did something wrong, but she learned real quick she can jump and grab the other ball without me telling her it was OK, but we fixed that right away. Now she does a perfect “aus” every time without using two balls and release anything for that matter when I give the command. If you haven’t read “the theory of corrections in dog training” it might be a good read. Like I said I am a novice trainer but this is what worked for me.

ScottK

If this is going to be a Schutzhund dog, I'd stop trying to teach the out so young.

Why does the pup need to know "out" at this juncture?


I would also recommend "Building Drive and Focus" as a way to teach the out, without conflict.
The mouthing on the ball is a sign that he already has developed some handler conflict issues regarding the out.
Correct it now, while he is still very young, and it hasn't become ingrained in his personality or work ethic.

Two-ball works, to begin teaching the out completely seperate from the bitework.
Steve is 110% right... giving a dog an immediate rebite after an out (after ANY unpleasant or stressful experience in the bitework, for that matter) will help create a happy, willing "out".

Does he only Out when there's food on offer, or will he do it at other times too? Does he REALLY know the Out command?

BDF is a great dvd for this, and immediate re-bites really help.

He's only 6 months, so his 'refusal' may have a little to do with testing Pack Structure too. Make sure yours is A1.

I was recently shown another way which seems to help. Using 2 toys - rubber rings or Orbee balls. Hold one and hide one. Have the dog tugging at one, then hold it perfectly still. As you do so, produce the other one, say Out and start moving the other one. Dog learns that Out means let go of the one thats not moving (not fun) and go for the one that is moving (fun).

No conflicts, no corrections, consistent Out.
(PS I'd like to know other trainers opinions of this method too!)

Hi Barbera,

The appropriate correction depends entirely on your dogs temperament, age, hardness and understanding of the command. I'll leave that to you to decide but I would be tempted to use a prong.

Yes two ball works, but this can cause chewing (in anticipation of being outed for the other ball). Also re-bite as reward works but you have to be careful with this also as it could cause a dog to be a bit dirty on the sleeve, again in anticipaiton of the re-bite.

This was recently explained to me by a very experienced trainer (re-bite problem) but I'm not really at the level yet where I can fully understand what he's talking about :-)

If you're certain the dog knows what out means and is just refusing to out then correcting would be the best course of action, but you really need to have an experienced trainer see you work with the dog and tell you where you are going wrong.

The most important thing in this process (and the most difficult for most people) is to be honest and show your normal training and not try to hide any flaws you may have.

HTH

John

I don't out 6 month old dogs. I just trade with whatever works to get the toy back.