History : I've been thinking about Hambone and his "personality" coupled with the attack by the coyotes a couple of years ago plus his thyroid issues which culminated in the wish to slaughter any dog which got near him and I began a search. (An aside: Thanks to medication, a trainer, Leerburg help and LOTS of individualized work, he is so much better and safer to be around.)

Hambone and Lucy are not allowed together unsupervised nor is Hambone allowed to stay in the house with Noodle (my cat) unsupervised. He is a predator. He has always been one. (He will listen to me but he does better outside where he can move away from what triggers him because that is the way I have been conditioning him.)

Topic : Anyway, I came across the theory of Predatory Drift. It makes sense that dogs who are playing with or even observing smaller dogs at play (see dog park or even at home between pack mates), or with ill or aged dogs, may drift over into predatory mode due to mixed signals, over aggressive play or even yelping in pain.

Has any one seen this first hand? Do you agree with the theory? Does is support the notion that dog parks and unsupervised play can end in tragedy? Is there a way to "train" predation out of pack mates? Is more breed specific? (I know all dogs are predators, but some are bred to hunt alone and some are bred to be near master, etc).

I am very interested in this topic. Any one have an opinion?

can you link to something explaining the theory in more detail?

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:EoiD-zZmH2QJ:www.homewardtrails.org/resources/Size%2520Differences%2520in%2520Dogs.pdf+predatory+drift&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://blogs.dogtime.com/go-dog-training/2009/02/what-is-predatory-drift

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:hhLoQEXNw3cJ:www.thecanineconnection.com/size.pdf+dogs+predatory+drift&cd=14&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I haven't found a scientific document to support this theory or behavior, so I was curious if anyone here has heard of it?

I can certainly see how this makes sense, I would never think of letting Yote play with a very small dog.

I don't ever take my dogs anymore but the dog park here has a small dog and big dog separate area. Some people still take their little dogs into the big dog area, but it is at their own risk. (and stupidity)

He is safe with our cats in the house, other cats, or outside cats are fair game and not safe.

High prey drive and a certain amount of willfull independence are common and to be expected with northern sled and spitz type dogs. That is part of their charm

I only read the first link. I don't agree with the theory in a "general sense" but I do agree in a specific sense.

Our domestic dogs have had their inherited traits/drives from their wild counterparts modified, increased, and/or suppressed. Our domestic dogs can be far more rank driven/dominant aggressive/socially aggressive(etc) than a wolf and also have much stronger prey drive. They can also have much less aggression of any sort and prey drive so modified the only thing they will chase is a ball. Prey drive can be so high that the only thing that is required to incite and maintain a prey response is movement.

Small dogs tend to act and move like prey items. Thanks to weak nerves/poor temperament from indiscriminate breeding(etc), small/toy/tiny dogs can often be nervous, twitchy, and uncertain. If you watch a small mammal in the wild, be it a squirrel or a rabbit or a mouse etc, they make the same jerky movements and have the same air of "danger is imminent" about them.

Some small dogs like terriers are more confident and feisty, their general movement is not like that of a prey animal, but their size poses as the issue.

Where size comes in is not limited to what percentage of the larger dogs body weight the smaller dog is. Pretty much everything is tiny compared to a 200 pound mastiff. IMO, It is also the actual size of the dog in comparison to natural prey such as rabbits, squirrels, etc. This is when talking about very small/toy breeds and the average pet(not working/very high drive/bite trained sport etc) dog.

I have seen dogs and cats that tolerate or play with small animals like ferrets, birds, rodents, etc. Just because the dog or cat is not currently attempting to maul or chase the smaller animal does not mean that smaller animal is not still a prey item. My pup tolerates my cat and will not chase him out of obedience, not out of a lack of desire to chase him.

A dog in drive can become distracted by movement - either from another dog or a person or a vehicle - and redirect its prey drive but unless the item is already acceptable prey the dog won't give chase to fulfill its drive.

Have you ever seen an excited dog in drive that is focused on a cat or a toy that it cannot reach, start to go after someone or something nearby that moved, then stop, and refocus back on the initial prey item? That is an example of a dog that is distracted by movement while in drive and realizing that the source of the movement is not an acceptable prey item. The temperament, training, handling, drives, etc of the dog in question will determine what is and what isn't acceptable prey.

I don't believe in a dog suddenly forgeting that the animal it is playing with is another dog. When it comes to big dog-small dog interaction, IMO, either the small dog is prey to begin with, or it isn't. Don't bank on your toy dog not being a prey item. If it is small, fast moving, and/or makes high pitched sounds, it can be a prey item.

I think the theory is crazy!
A dog's inclination to be preditory on other dogs, large or small, is determend by genetics and/or bad environment and traiining. NOT size!
When my daughters were little (70s)I had a 130 lb GSD/Dane and a 9 1/2 lb Terrier/Poodle. The terrier/Poodle mix would kill anything it could over power but both intact males got along fine. If either would be considered to have preditory behaviour it was the Terrier/Poodle. The GSD/Dane cross put up with more than the average dog with that little $#!+.
Today I have two 85 lb, intact male GSDs, one SchIII CDX TT CGC, now training in herding, with the UD to come, and the other is on his way to all the same. They are kenneled together. also a 12 lb, nutted, JRT house dog.
Again, it's the little bassid JRT that does all the attacking if I'm not around.
I've owned multiple dogs all my life. both large and small, male and female together and never had problems with any of the larger dogs being preditory to the smaller.

Bob I definitely agree that there are many factors.

I have seen larger dogs react out of prey towards small dogs, though. Granted the small dogs were always quite a bit smaller and were the nervous type. I forgot to mention that I think whether or not a dog has ever been exposed to much smaller dogs plays a part in how much smaller dogs are viewed.

A dog learns quickly from its own experiences and from its littermates/parents and owners what is and what is not an acceptable prey item. If a dog grows up socialized with small dogs it will learn that they are not acceptable prey items.

I have taught my pup that the cat is not an acceptable prey item. I have also taught him that the chickens, cows, llamas, goats, sheep, horses, etc, are not acceptable prey items. His desire to chase is suppressed because he has learned that there is no reward involved. Doesn't mean these are not still prey items. From 2 pound chickens to 2000 pound bulls and everything in between, the only thing he requires to view something as prey is movement.

He is not dog aggressive and has very good OB for an 8 month old but I would never trust him to not chase and kill a small dog if such an opportunity presented itself. Same goes for a strange cat or any small fuzzy thing.

When reading the definition, I wondered if predatory drift was more of an "excuse" than an actual occurance of nature.

I have seen many people, with dogs, that do not insist their dogs ignore certain "items" , ie cows, chickens, horses, cats, etc. They think its cute (wolfish) that their dog is "hunting" and wants the meat...for lack of better definition. IMO, it is the stare and stalk that begins the predatory drive and hunt in dogs that gets it to the point of no return.

I do agree with the small jerky movements engaging the attention, the stare, and the prey drive. I have watched Hambone hunt (and he only hunts what is (has) been allowed to be prey), and it is movement of prey, his stare, stalk, and then driving in to kill. (Remembering he had been taught to patrol the farm and take care of business. He is retired and no dog will do that job from now on).

He knows dogs are NOT prey items in that he cannot kill them, just drive them away (controlled predation?), but given the right circumstances (or wrong as it were), I do not doubt he would administer wounds or death. I have seen him fixate on small yippy noisy badmannered dogs with the same stare and stance he has before he begins his stalk. Intervention at the appropriate time prior to the stare and stance has been working to disrupt the "hunt" and allow him time to recognize that it a dog not a prey item. AND, to support Jennifer, he hasn't been around small yippy dogs so I haven't had the opportunity to train that this is not a prey.

Having said all that, I agree if socialized with small dogs (see toy size for small in my definition of small), MOST dogs will not "drift" into predation. I also believe it needs to be the handlers' responsibilities to ensure that their dogs are clear on what is prey and what is not prey. And, I failed in that measure with Hambone in regards to toy sized dogs.

All of this does support dog parks as being a bad idea in that well mannered, trained, socialized, obedient dogs will not "drift" into predation, but how many well mannered, trained, socialized, obedient dogs attend dog parks or daycare and are also constantly monitored by people who know the signals of their dogs?--not many. How many people encourage their dogs to bark, strain at the leash, hold the stare all with idea that this makes a "good" dog? AND, then take their precious to a park to engage other dogs in "play"? A LOT!

Bob, you are a wonderful handler (from your posts that i have read) and I believe it is your leadership that held your pack together, good genetics, and training. As for your little predators, they are terriers right? 120 lbs in a less than 15 pound body? They don't give off the vibe of prey. Lucy is almost half Hambone's size, but she has the stance, solid nerves around other dogs, proper behavior, and does not give off the vibe of prey. Does this negate the drift theory of predation or support it? I think the drift theory as a whole may be bunk but it has merit in that maybe people will begin to train their dogs properly instead of thinking its cute they growl, strain, stare, and stalk other dogs and believe it is all in play.

Jo, I agree that the terriers don't give off a "vibe of prey". It's all about confidence with them but their quick, herky jerky movement could easily trigger a strange dog. That dog may have regrets later but it it can happen.
I don't think this has a bearing on "drift theory" just the nature of the beast.
Nancy, I think you hit it dead center when you said;
"but not pack members".
My GSDs will happily play with both my daughters' Chi dogs but we would never leave them unattended.
With the JRT they are tolerated but that goes for any of my families dogs. The JRT just tolerates all of them, big or small. LOL!