I have just taken an awesome rescue, to a handler,,,she is saying compulsion training has been done on him....I have researced all of his prior handler,s and no one has done this, as far as I can tell. I know it as forced retrieve. She is saying that he is great dog and she is exceptionally mad about this.
I know, opinions vary, from trainer to trainer, in your humble opinion, can a 18mo dog, be trained out of this compulsive retrieve.. He drops tug, and she likes dog who will NOT drop tug. He will go nose to ground, but she states sight hunts.

Sure just retrain the dog from the ground up, different objects, different commands.

We've retrained with motivational and markers on a number of dogs at our club. Some have been previously titled dogs, some have no previous titles.
As with ANY training it still depends on the dog's individual drives, temperment and the new handler's abilities.

A forced retreive is compulsion training. I think marker training, can turn a dog around wonderfully, but trust has to come first. I agree totally with Bob, temperment, drives and handler's desires to turn the dog around is what is going to make this successful. Dogs do have flash backs, but they can be minimized!!!!!!
Trust is built one day at a time.
Happy Training,
Roni

I am retraining a dog that has had enough complulsion done on him to turn most stomachs.

It is a slow process but we are making progress.

Best part is that he enjoys training now and no longer tries to eat me.

Once in a while you can see him looking around for the fight. But those moments are getting fewer and fewer.

For those of us that do not know (well for me anyway), what is complulsion training? Is that forced training?

Compulsion training, IMO:

Training a dog to sit using compulsion training.
Say sit. When dog fails to sit, lift up on leash until butt makes contact with ground. If necessary, use a second hand to push down on the dogs rump. "Good sit."

Training a dog to down, using compulsion training.
Yank the leash downwards until the dog is physically forced to put it's elbows and chin on the ground. Say "down".
When the rump eventually follows suit, "Good down".

For a description of compulsion training with an e-collar, google "e-collar avoidance training" or PM me and I'll send you a link.

Laura ,

Alyssa pretty much explained basic compulsion training but compulsion can also be used after a dog has been trained with more positive/motivation training and doesn't do something it has been taught and demonstrated it knows . This usually comes when dogs move into an environment with more distractions . Compulsion is not neccessarily a bad thing . I've learned through the years that more positive / motivational methods work better then compulsion or corrections . But it also depends on the dog .

With the force retreive it usually starts with putting an object into the dogs mouth and making it hold it . If the dogs loosens it's grip the handler smacks or taps the bottom of it's jaw telling the dog to "hold" . Once the dog is holding the item well usually after having progressed to having the dog be able to hold on to the item while heeling and hold into it until the handler commands the dog to release it into their hands , they then progress to the earpinch . The handler holds the item in front of the dog and commands it to fetch while pinching it's ear . Once the dog gets the item in it's mouth the pinch is released and you have the dog hold it until commanded to release it . The handler then throws the item a short distance and pinches the dogs ear telling it to fetch directing it towards the item . The pinch is released once the dog picks up the item . The distance is then increased slowly until the dog is rushing to pick up the item . There are variations of this using the dogs toes and a string .

IMO there are better more positive ways to do this and most dogs don't need a forced retreive . But once again it depends on the dog . About 15 years ago I trained my hunting Lab this way . It was a common technique used with hunting dogs . Looking back this dog could have been trained using a motivational technique but I didn't know any better at the time . He did learn well though and done correctly the dog should hold on to it until the handler commands it to release the item . Not release it early like the dog described in the original poster's example . My dog was a great hunting dog and learned to properly retreive birds to hand through this method . I just could have taught it better without conflict using positive motivation . I just didn't know any better at the time .

A few years later my first K9 partner Mic (Police K9) needed it . He was a stubborn dog and wouldn't retrieve or search for articles(evidence , guns , burglary tools , etc. ) . I tried every motivational method I could and it didn't work . Most Police K9's take to article searching motivationally and it's pretty easy to teach . This dog was an exception to the rule .

The force fetch improved his article searching . He went on to find several guns , evidence , etc. in his career . He once located a crowbar used in a violent robbery involving several suspects . The fingerprint off that crowbar lead to the arrest of several suspects involved in about 7 violent robberies of conveniance stores . He also located a gun for another agency whose K9 refused to search for it saying it couldn't be done . The suspect had shot up his girlfriends car in front of their courthouse . He then lead the police on a highspeed chase throwing the gun somewhere along the chase . My partner found it after searching about a mile , several hours after the chase .

Done properly with the right dog it's a good technique to have but only as a last resort .

Yep Jim, that is how they do it in texas, with the bird dogs anyway,,,,, and we all have, what I call starter dogs. These are the ones we start with, make lots of mistakes and if interested, keep learning and getting more and more knowledge about how to Handle dogs. It is all in the handling.
Trainer took dog, so I think she plans on retraining, or training out,,,she started day one, earning trust,,,she is awesome experieinced handler, and I bet, that later on, I hear later on, that she was able to train him to get to do, what she wants.
Thanks for the discussion, it was a good one as always.

Is there a difference between compulsion training and the correction phase of training? Or compulsion training just using any amount of force/correction?