I know from the video a puppy should not be run through the correction phase because it will damage the drive of the dog.
What do you think is the proper age of a dog to begin the correction Phase of basic obedience, assuming he knows the meaning of the command word?

Lonny,

Your question involves a realm of dog training which is as much art/skill as it is set on some chronological timeline. I use a particular dog's temperament to determine when compulsion is begun. For example, if the dog is a hard, tough butthead, I may begin compulsion as early as six or seven months. For softer, more sensitive dogs, I may wait as long as a year. Also, it depends on what kind of work the dog will eventually perform. You're not going to kill ball drive with forced "sits" and "downs." I always err on the side of waiting because I know that, when the necessary time comes, I can always rein the dog in with compulsion; however, I would not recommend waiting so long if you have a hard, dominant dog and you aren't experienced enough to handle such a dog's personal challenge. Finally, I love dogs that are extremely "drivie" and love doing their work; as such, I've found for me that having them wait to exit a kennel or crate and the long down with just a small amount of compulsion, mixed with a reward (ball or food) works wonders----this way you don't have to correct the hell out them with a prong or e-collar, and they love the training, whatever it is. Good Luck!

You picked a very controversial subject. There are as many points of view on this subject as there are trainers. First the facts then I will throw in my opinion. Compulsion reduces drive. Fact. Older dogs bounce back better from compulsion better then puppies. Fact. Compulsion is more effective when combined with drive. Fact. Now the waters get a little mucky. Some old timers especially ones that took the “German way” as law feel that obedience work should not begin until after the first year or so when bite work has taken off. Myself. I believe that a PSD or series Schutzhund dog should be kenneled and not live in a house. Can I open my eyes now? I can hear the emails flowing already. “My little Fito sits on my lap all night long and I dare you to come to my club and say he is not a serious contender.” We’ll save that for another post. This accomplishes two things. I will only go into the first since this is the topic at hand. It removes the need to teach Fito proper house manners. Until my dog matures all obedience work (or imprinting) is done through motivation. Using food and a lot of praise. It is not until his drive and maturity level has developed that I introduce compulsion. This is totally dependent on the particular dog.

Thanks Guys,
It figures I would pick a controversial subject! I will assume that "compulsion" is correction.. I am not clear on what that word means. I guess it is an art form when it comes to knowing when to begin corrections. I am not new to training dogs I just have never trained a puppy on up for a specific goal yet. The goal with my dog is Schutzhund, so I am doing as much research and talking to as many people as I can before I get my dog and begin a training program. Thank you very much for your opinions guys, this board is such a great idea!

Ed has a couple of good articles on the web site about puppy training. Including one on Schutzhund and puppy obedience. His opinion is that the idea of not training a puppy in obedience until 1 yr is a misinterpretaion of the German recomendation.

There was a lot of work done for Guide Dogs on obedience in the early 70's, late 60's, on traiing obedience. The study results suggested that the earlier you start puppies on obedience the better.

The tape you refer to states that you use teaching and proofing on puppies, no correction. Puppies are too young for corrections for the most part.

I have always started my puppies on obedience the day they come home. The way I do it is no corrections, it is all fun and games. Puppies have a very short attention span so lessons no more than 15 mins. I do it 2-3 times a day. I gently put the puppy in the osition I want along with the command. Encourage them to heel by giving them some thng to follow. As the puppy ages you will see the attention span increase until you can do normal lessons. I keep a close I on the puppy for stay's and always release them before they break. Usually bu the time the puppy is 6 months old I have them doing Heel, Come, Finish (2 types), Down, Stand, Sit/Down on recall, Recall to heel, Distance position Changes Sit-Down/Down-Sit, pretty much all the obedience I teach. It is all off lead and both voice and hand signals. The Stays are not very long, that builds as the attention span increases.

Corrections I start slow at 5-6 months depending on the puppy. Almost all of this is based on the puppy's temprament. All of this fits in the catagory of teaching the puppy the "rules of the pack". Since they have always done it, it is not an issue for my dogs. I rarely need to put much of a correction on any of my dogs. By this I mean it is not often or very firm. It just may take a small reminder or two if we haven't done much work for awhile.

As for proofing I do several things. I work in areas with lots of people, outside Grocery stores, Petsmart, or the park when they have it down. By 6-12 months they can do a group obedience class off lead with 20-60 dogs. I don't start in the group untill the commands are all down and solid, usually 5-6 months of age. It then takes a little while to get it back perfect with all the distractions.

I have read much on this subject and spoken to numerous people about it. I agree that correcting a pup can gradually kill its 'drive' over time. However, isn't there a proper way to correct a pup even if its going to be used as a service dog later? What is wrong with teaching it house rules? If my pup does something inappropriate I correct her - just a simple pop to let her know that its wrong. How would this kill her drive unless its done incorrectly or overdone?

For PSDs, why shouldn't they be in the house? Wouldn't that enhance the bond between dog and handler and make it a better working dog?

There are some basic rules to use on correcting a dog of any age. The first is rule is

DRIVE-COMPULSION-DRIVE This refers to training and corrections or compusion. When the dog (or pup) is in drive and makes a mistake it gets compulsion, but as soon as the compulsion is over it goes back into drive (or gets priased)

The second rule is that if a dog has a level 4 in hardness it should only be corrected at a level 4 and then after that it should get level 5 or 6 praise and/or drive from you.

I have an article on my web site about how to raise a really hard puppy. If you want to learn something read this article.

"For PSDs, why shouldn't they be in the house? Wouldn't that enhance the bond
between dog and handler and make it a better working dog? "


Police dogs should not live in the house. If the handler cannot form a good bond with his dog while he is working with the service dog during their 8 to 10 hour shift then the handler may want to either consider a different dog or another specialty in the department.

A service dog needs rest - if he comes home and is exposed to life in the family he will not be rested enough when its time to work. Service dogs ARE NOT PETS !! as such they are not treated like pets. Their life is their work.

Ed said: "The second rule is that if a dog has a level 4 in hardness it should only be corrected at a level 4 and then after that it should get level 5 or 6 praise and/or drive from you."

To parrot what Ed said: I neglected to mention the praise aspect of compulsion in my post. This is an area where MANY and even experienced trainers screw up. I see this happen almost every day that I train. The quickest way to make a dog hate training is to neglect praising him/her after a correction.

I beleive that it depends on the dog. You would not want to start coming down on a three month old pup. I have seen people train dogs, after they are a year, and bfroe, and both look like a mess. It really all comes down to the dog, and the skill of the handler. I know a guy in Germany that will not touch a dog, unitl it is aleast a year and he uses from the start strict complusion on the dog, a little praise and not your regular food, toy training and the end result are dogs that look pretty good, but he is a gifted trainer, and will break a weak dog. On the other hand you I have seen a few people train with little corrections and whne the pup understood what was wanted, and they looked and performed pretty well also. So it depends on the dog, and the skill of the handler.

Ken:

What you said about praise is so true. Especially for males. Why do you think there are so many female handlers doing such pretty obedience work. Because they know how to praise. Sure we males have no problem with the corrections but we think a little pat on the back is enough for Fito. Laugh at me if you want but I act like my pup just cured cancer after he does something right.

Catherine:

EVERY correction reduces the drive of a dog. Sure a proper correction is better than an over correction. My Schutzhund dog is not a pet. He lives and dies for his work. Why correct him for biting the couch when I can save that for the field? God forbid I turn my back for a second and my pup prey bites a dinner guest on his sock and he slaps the pup on his nose. All my work and money can go down the drain in one second flat. Plus I want him to know that when he sees me it is for one reason only. To work! As soon as I take him out of his kennel that is a cue for him to come up in drive.