OK. Here is a new thread.

The question was, if the dog automatically sits for things trained, ie, before leashing, feeding, etc. Should you give command anyway, reward, or what?

Thanks.

Also, to mods., if this is in wrong category, please move.

 Quote: denise skidmore

So did we determine this was a legitimate side-trip instead of a hijack?

 Quote: wendy lefebvre

Yes, these are all things we want the dog to do. sit before going outside etc etc. But you don't want him anticipating thats what you are going to ask.

I don't completely agree. I like having certain patterns that the dog can expect and offer the correct behavior before it's asked. I do agree though that during an obedience session where we're practicing sit/down, I don't want the dog starting to do puppy pushups by herself, as the point of the exercise was to teach the individual commands.

If the dog was not previously under command, and anticipated my desire, I think that's a good thing. If the dog was previously under command, it should be waiting for release or counter command, not taking initiative.

Think about why you want her to sit before you decide if an automated sit is a good thing or not.

 Quote: alyssa myracle

For a dog, life is a series of context clues.
When the humans say "sit", and I put my butt on the ground, good things happen.

Equally, when I put my butt on the ground next to the door, good things also happen.
I tend to praise a behavior with the command included, e.g., "Good sit!". So, if a dog offers a behavior like sitting at the door to go out, before being asked, I'd simply say "Good sit".

If the dog doesn't sit at the door to go out, I'll tell the dog to sit, and when it does, say "Good sit".

My personal opinion is that through repetition, the dog is intelligent enough to understand that you are praising the specific behavior, whether or not it was given a command, because it was in the correct context.

As far as "offering" behaviors in an incorrect context, I believe that a negative marker can correct that problem, until eventually a dog learns the appropriate times to anticipate a command or offer behaviors, and the inappropriate times to do so.

I feel dogs are intelligent enough to learn the context clues, provided we are clear and consistent.

 Quote: Scott Garrett

^^^That's exactly what I do. It seems to work well.

I'll be interested in responses too. I've trained mine to sit for lots of things that I don't offer the command for. I see it as the dog saying "please" when they want something. It also shows that they don't get anything for free.

They sit before I will open the crate, sit before being fed, sit to have leashes put on or removed. But I don't ask for these sits. I just wait for them to do what they know they are supposed to do. Their reward is to get the thing they asked "please" for: get out of the crate, get their food, go on a walk, get the leash off, etc.


eta: clearly, a dog has to be trained in the ordinary way to offer the behavior first, by asking for it and rewarding it--before you can expect the behavior un-asked-for. But eventually, once they know what to do, I think it gives them a sense of self-control to have to think about what behavior to offer to get what they want. They don't have to be told everything.

Which is why i stated that was just my opinion.

I don't want Tucker anticipating any commands.

Don't get me wrong, I don't reprimand him for doing it, i just give a different command to make him do so that it's enforced that I call the shots. Not him.

Im strict...lol.

For certain things I want or am perectly fine with a conditioned response, such as before I feed them or when I am putting a leash on or when they want to be pet.

But if we are actually having a training session I give them another command if they offer a sit unasked for.

I don't allow it in training or if I pull out a treat and they sit I will command them to do something else.

The only time I do allow an 'auto sit' is when I am letting them out the door into the garden. I expect a SIT and WAIT until I give the release command - the door is not opened until they sit, if they break the wait I will correct them.
I see this as ingrained behaviour like walking nicely on the lead (not heelwork) - once trained it should be normal behaviour.

I wouldn't allow a sit to put lead on etc. as it might prove an issue with stays etc. if you return to put on lead.

 Quote: Tanith Wheeler

I wouldn't allow a sit to put lead on etc. as it might prove an issue with stays etc. if you return to put on lead.

Could you explain what you mean here for me?

 Quote: tracy collins

I've trained mine to sit for lots of things that I don't offer the command for. I see it as the dog saying "please" when they want something. It also shows that they don't get anything for free.

We do that here too, only Maggie is so big and intimidating, we encourage her to beg by laying down. (Don't want to have to deal with a drooling dane who can easily stick her head over the dinner table.) I do feed her tidbits from the table, and we're working on shaping the down-beg into pretending to ignore my food. The ignoring the food thing is mostly for guests' sake. Last thing you want is 120 lbs of hunger staring you down during dinner.

 Quote: Jennifer Lee

 Quote: Tanith Wheeler

I wouldn't allow a sit to put lead on etc. as it might prove an issue with stays etc. if you return to put on lead.

Could you explain what you mean here for me?

Quite often for competition or during training the dog is left in a stay, on return to the dog I am usually asked to put the leash on before releasing the dog.

If my dog auto sat when the lead appeared, he might break the stay. Granted the use of the stay command should prevent this but I prefer to keep stays as settled as possible.

Normally when I put the lead on all I ask is that the dog is settled / still. With a new dog I wait until they calm before sticking the lead on.

Thought this might interest you all:

Quoted from Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt

"Teach your dog some "default" behaviors (my primary ones are eye contact, sit, and down). Whatever behaviors you reward the most will become the defaults. I always wait for my dogs to give a default behavior before I give them dinner, let them out of a crate, or do anything else they are going to enjoy. Default behaviors are not cued; the dogs offer these behaviors because they have a strong reward history for doing so. These are behaviors that the dog automatically gives you when he wants something from you or doesn't know what to do and is asking for information."

For me - both of my dogs offer a sit/eye contact as their default behavior. If we reach a door, they sit and "ask" me to open the door...if I have a bowl of food in my hand, they sit and "ask" me to put their bowl down...if we are beginning a training session, they sit and "ask" me to do some training. And so on...

It also helps them in some situations that they might be uncomfortable in...for example, today at the vets, Grace was nervous (poor dog never has a good time at the vet unfortunately). She sat and offered me eye contact - asking me "what's next?". Same goes for when we are walking...if I stop, they sit. It is their calm behavior as well.

For those of you who consider this as "anticipating" a command, I'd like to hear more of your reasoning...I don't have any problem with my girls anticipating commands in training. Not saying you are wrong...just would like more of your thoughts