What are reasonable expectations of a 17 week old GSD? Heidi is my first puppy and quite a handful for me. I have visited this site often hoping that I would see something specific regarding when I should start obedience training including corrections. How do I know for sure that she understands what I'm saying?

Heidi will sit, lay down and stay (for a few minutes as long as she can see me), everytime, in my kitchen for food. If I try and work with her without food, she easily figures out she may or may not get a cookie and becomes frustrated and starts biting me. (Is it biting if it's hard enough to bruise my skin?) She LOVES to chase her tennis balls- I say balls because one is not enough. She will immediately "drop" one to chase the other in my hand, but will not release it-unless for food. If she happens to drop it and I reach for it- I will always get a bite on the hand.

Heidi loves to walk, however, also loves to forge ahead on a taught leash and occasionally "chase" cars. I want her to love walking. If I try to shorten her leash to walk next to me- she goes into a feeding frenzy on my hand, arm or legs.

Heidi is rarely at ease in our dining room and living room and will not settle down. I know she understands what is hers, however, she insists on grabbing and running with things that aren't-certainly for the chase!

I know I've rambled and apoligize for my ignorance. Are these normal things? How much is too much- or not enough attention? When should I correct her or should I correct a 17 week old puppy and how do I do it if her actions warrent a correction?

I think that, in order to answer your questions the best, those of us inclined to offer an opinion would need to know what it is that you expect from Hiedi in the end........to you have particular aspirations or goals. Just as importanlty, what is the lineage on Heidi? Is she the result in the intentional introduction of two highly select working dogs or the product of a too highly motivated male and too short of a fence?

If you have any hopes to have Hiedi evolve into any kind of protection dog, I would really lay off the obedience before she becomes inhibitted. If you refer to Ed's tape, bite training puppies and first steps in bite training ( I may not have these titles exactly ver batim) you will see that there is an emphasis on the bite work before you start serious obedience. I have both these videos, unfortunately, I purchased them after the damage was done, coincidentally to my dog named Hiedi. There are also a few remarks about this very issue in Ed's training articles and FAQ's. I hope this is a start for you.

WOW! Can I have her, please? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Renee, I feel like I have the brother to this puppy and he is the very same way. I was just planning to do fun stuff but he is really a handful for us. I can understand where the other poster is coming from. The drives are tremendous...controllable but tremendous!!!! Can be fun but maybe a little more than we bargained for. I am going to watch this thread closly for any tips also!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hi Nochim! And welcome!!

Ok, first things first...Are you planning on doing bite work with Heidi? I never allow my pups to be mouthy or bite. They learn very quickly that their mouths do not belong on my hands! I will grab their muzzle and snap it shut while scolding them and giving a "no bite" command. You may also need to scruff her if she requires a harsher reprimand. If you're not planning to do bite work then you can stop there. But if you are, you should redirect her bite to something acceptable like a canvas bite tube.

As far as the obedience, you're on the right track with the food. That's about all you should expect from her right now. I usually don't start my pups on formal obedience with a prong collar and corrections until about 6 months. I have used a prong collar sooner than that for walks on a leash, but no corrections. As Ed says, "power steering for dogs". She will walk into her own correction by tugging on the lead.

If food is what gets her going, I would continue to use it until you know she understands the commands and will obey them with much consistency. Once that happens, you can slowly cut back on the amounts and replace it with praise. I've never had a problem weaning my dogs off the food but I never used it exclusively, but if you do, you'll have to make the transition gradually by alternating smaller and smaller amounts of food and more and more praise. Once you get consistency, you know she understands and it's time to start with corrections.

As far as her robust playfulness, once again you need to redirect her attention to things she can play with. Use this to your advantage as a training incentive as well. You may also try putting her crate in the living room and giving her "time outs" when she is being too rambunctious and mischievous. That way she's still be near you, but is forced to calm down and maybe even take a nap or two <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If scruff corrections are effective now, I would stick with that until she is a couple of months older. I just really hesitate to give harsh corrections too soon on a pup.

Now, you can take everything I've said and go with it, or wait a bit until someone else posts a reply telling you the complete opposite! That's the beauty of this board, but I guarantee you'll learn a lot <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just hang in there, and don't get too frustrated with her, pups will be pups.

While what Beth suggested is not unique and has been successful I allow my pupps to be mouthy on me. If this is not right for you then rather than corrections I would teach them that playing correctly gets food and affection otherwise they do not. This fixes the problem with no corrections needed. The only corrections that I allow in puppyhood is for potty training. Why. Because I can not afford mistakes through the learning process. If you get what I mean. If done properly intermittent feeding should increase focus not loose it. From what I read Richard agrees with this maybe he can give you some tips. One I will give is that food comes from a hidden source otherwise they catch on to your tricks.

That's a good point Vince, it just depends on how much mouthiness you are willing to allow from your pup. I firmly believe that I need to nip it in the bud right from the start because I allow my pups to interact with a lot of other people, including children. And mouthiness is not always taken as kindly by them or their parents.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Not to mention that as your pup grows, the biting becomes more painful! I will add something though, that I forgot to mention in my previous post: When you are making corrections at this young age, it's always important to follow it with something pleasurable. That way the pup learns that life is not all about getting in trouble, otherwise they may shut down and become what everyone likes to call a "bag of nerves". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you all for your responses. My original plan for Heidi was to be a family companion and as someone said here- just to have fun. However, I had no idea that she was going to be so smart and require as much mental stimulation as physical. I have no specifics regarding her lineage and working titles-only that the sire is of German lines and the Dam of American lines.(nothing to do with this post, but any ideas on how I find out?)

I know Heidi was meant to be much more than just "my friend", but at this point I won't be doing any bite work or protection training with her- I think just becasue of my ignorance, fear and the responisbilty of it.

So should I allow biting to continue? It depends on the severity of how she grabs me as to how I deal with it. (That may be confusing her?) If we are rough housing and she gets me, she gets a "no bite" and redirection to the toy we are playing with. (my fiance will do a muzzle grab which just seems to excite her more so I don't do it) It seems that sometimes she gets so excited she loses her mind for a second. If she just walks up to me gets me for no reason (for attention?) she gets a strong "no bite" and a collared escort to her kennel for 5 minutes, which usually works. Scruffing her neck never worked for me-only gets her going more. We don't have kids, but I know that right now that I CANNOT have her around them. She scares and scratches them with those teeth. Which brings up another issue- how do I begin to get her around kids?

Lastly, I need one more bit of advice for now- Is excited verbal praise enough? Physical praise is difficult-actually impossible- when I'm working with her. Most of the time she will go into a frenzy if I try to physically priase her. She seems to stay attentive if I don't touch her, though I don't know if she is having fun.

Thank you all so much!

I would not allow biting to continue, especially since you would like to eliminate it altogether. I think it is time to correct her for any type of biting, whichever way you feel is effective.

As far as kids are concerned, you need to approach this very carefully. I would first try to start out with kids you are familiar with, older kids preferably who already have experience with dogs. Keep Heidi on a leash at all times. Put her in a sit or down stay and let the kids approach her in a non-threatening manner (i.e. do not hover or reach over her). Just start with simple petting, no playing or rough-housing. If Heidi is not comfortable with the situation, don't force her into it, but also do not let her force herself on the kids. My dogs are taught to politely accept petting while in a stay command and nothing else. If she gets excited or rambunctios, remove her from the situation. I only let kids I know play with my dogs, supervised at all times. Strangers are not allowed to engage in play.

As far as the praise goes, whatever works!

Sounds just like my pup (5mths old) actually I thought you where talking about my boy..lol
Sounds like you already have some good advice but let me also throw in the fact that you pup is probably "Teething" like mad right now.
My pup has a mouth full of pup teeth and a mouth full of adult teeth busting through.
Give him plenty of ice cubes to chew and rope toys etc...When he goes for my arms, hands, feet whatever I tell him OFF!! or OUT!! and replace my body parts with a rope or kong.
When he gets really wound up (usually once a day) I'll crate him for a 1/2 hour.
good luck and enjoy he is just a pup remember.