Peter Marek wrote 04/14/2009 12:07 PM To add digestive enzymes or not ? #236125 - 04/14/2009 12:07 PM
Peter Marek Webboard User Reg: 03-05-2009 Posts: 274 Loc: NJ, USA Offline	Hi everyone, The question I have is should I add some digestive enzymes to Kaiser's food? His "normal" meal at this point is 2 chicken backs, 2 - 3 chicken necks, 1/4 cup ground beef. At night I add 400 Vit E and 4800 IU Fish oil. He also gets 1 ProBios probiotic tablet. I'm thinking he's a little heavy on the "bone" side of the equation so my intention is to add more ground beef over the course of the next few days and try to get him to about 1/2 cup ground beef and maybe cut back on a back or neck - leaving his total intake to about 1.2 pounds per meal (twice daily). (Yes more organ meats are planed but he just got to beef a few days ago). Here's why I'm thinking I should. His stool is rather firm (more like on the hard side - pick it up and it feels like a stone can be crushed with gentle pressure and is very crumbly, dry, and hard) and was thinking that since he's only been eating raw for a couple weeks now that maybe the boost in enzymes will help him digest better. Input please oh wise ones. No, I am not an alien!
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Connie Sutherland wrote 04/14/2009 12:48 PM Re: To add digestive enzymes or not ? [Re: Peter Marek ] #236132 - 04/14/2009 12:48 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Sure! I think that digestive enzymes that are needed for a big diet change take a while to kick into full production.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 04/14/2009 12:50 PM Re: To add digestive enzymes or not ? [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #236133 - 04/14/2009 12:50 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	So 1/4 cup of beef is good poop-wise? You might consider adding unsweetened unflavored live-culture yogurt. And a little more MM is probably in order, but remember that it need not be beef.
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Peter Marek wrote 04/14/2009 12:57 PM Re: To add digestive enzymes or not ? [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #236134 - 04/14/2009 12:57 PM
Peter Marek Webboard User Reg: 03-05-2009 Posts: 274 Loc: NJ, USA Offline	1/4 cup is good poop-wise except that I'm finding the poop to be a little on the hard dry side. That is one reason I'm thinking to add the DEs - to help breakdown some of the bone and pull more nutrients from his food if his gut hasn't yet fully develioped all the necessary flora. I'm assuming - big assumption here - that if his flora was working at 100% then the poop would be not so dry and rock like. The backs are somewhat meaty but they have me guessing - the necks I'm assuming are more bone that meat - so I've added the beef. Wanted to bump up the beef, eventually, to about 1/2 cup or so - just so I can use it for variety with other things in the future. I'm thinking this weekend to try some chicken liver or gizzards - one to start. So what is the difference then between the ProBios tablet and the contents of yogurt? I'm feeding him ProBios. I thopught the DEs were different than what could be found in yogurt (or probiotic supplements)? No, I am not an alien!
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Connie Sutherland wrote 04/14/2009 01:06 PM Re: To add digestive enzymes or not ? [Re: Peter Marek ] #236136 - 04/14/2009 01:06 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Oh yeah; I was talking yogurt PLUS the ProBios and DEs. Yogurt is fermented food with active cultures and is so well tolerated by most dogs that I was suggesting it as part of the additional "meat" you are planning. Yes, DEs are for enzymes and ProBios and live-culture yogurt are for probiotics. QUOTE: I'm assuming - big assumption here - that if his flora was working at 100% then the poop would be not so dry and rock like. END I am thinking more like the diet still being heavy on bone. If you plan to intro liver this week, I'd probably not up the beef at the same time. That way you are still on top of which item causes pudding (if it does).
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Peter Marek wrote 04/14/2009 01:17 PM Re: To add digestive enzymes or not ? [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #236141 - 04/14/2009 01:17 PM
Peter Marek Webboard User Reg: 03-05-2009 Posts: 274 Loc: NJ, USA Offline	Perfect will do increases in ground beef until sat - at which point the increase will stop and a chicken liver will be introduced. Any good recommendation on an easily obtainable DE ? No, I am not an alien!
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Tracy Collins wrote 04/14/2009 01:31 PM Re: To add digestive enzymes or not ? [Re: Peter Marek ] #236148 - 04/14/2009 01:31 PM
Tracy Collins Webboard User Reg: 10-09-2008 Posts: 1917 Loc: St. Louis, Missouri Offline	Just chiming in from the peanut gallery to say I agree with Connie. As your menu develops, you might also think about introducing small amounts of vegetable matter. The added cellulosse fiber in things like squash, green beans, berries, carrots, etc. can help keep a bit more moisture in the poop. Plus, the veggies can add some extra nutrition too if you puree, cook, or freeze (my preferred method) them. I don't feed veggies in every meal--maybe every third meal--and then only a small handful. There are raw feeders who don't feed any plant-based foods. Some feed veg but no starches. There's no single right answer. I'm not convinced dogs absolutely need any plants in the diet. But they can't hurt unless the vegetables take up so much room in the bowl that they are taking the place of meat. Cinco | Jack | Fanny | Ellie | Chip | Deacon
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Peter Marek wrote 04/14/2009 01:34 PM Re: To add digestive enzymes or not ? [Re: Tracy Collins ] #236150 - 04/14/2009 01:34 PM
Peter Marek Webboard User Reg: 03-05-2009 Posts: 274 Loc: NJ, USA Offline	At some point I am planning on introducing some form of veggie matter - not sure when or what yet. Thinking veggies at some point should be introduced as it would stand to reason that it would be part of a prey-type diet. Off Topic Quickly: How's Luca????? No, I am not an alien!
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Michael_Wise wrote 04/14/2009 02:43 PM Re: To add digestive enzymes or not ? [Re: Peter Marek ] #236167 - 04/14/2009 02:43 PM
Michael_Wise Webboard User Reg: 07-10-2006 Posts: 4454 Loc: Arkansas Offline	I'd be under the impression that your pup's enzymes are doing awesome with the way you describe the poo. There is a lot of material from edible bones that isn't used. That's all. Think about how much bone went in and you still have very little coming out and it is completely broken down into powder. It'll soften up more, like Connie already mentioned, when more meat or fat or liver is added. The pace at which you are adding things sounds perfect.:smile: Or you can always throw in some petco doggie cookies to loosen him up.... Sorry, just kidding.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 04/14/2009 02:51 PM Re: To add digestive enzymes or not ? [Re: Michael_Wise ] #236168 - 04/14/2009 02:51 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: Michael_Wise ... Or you can always throw in some petco doggie cookies to loosen him up.....
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