hi everyone, I am new to the forum and have a big problem with my own dogpack. it is kindof a long story and involves aggression within the group. I took my dogs to a behaviorist in March. she said they were basically "nice" dogs..but a week later the 2 young ones attacked the elder dog..and now the behaviorist is calling their behavior "highly abnormal" and suggesting euthanasia as a viable option. Her dog aggression book describes her own dogs fighting so visciously that she had to practically drown them to seperate them, but she says I am wasting valuable energy on these 2 problem dogs when there are lots of sweet dogs to rescue in their place.
so my question is: do you folks agree that I am dumb to try to help my dogs???
here is the background..they are Australian Sheps..Sophie is 11 yrs old, and when we lost her brother back when she was 8, we adopted through Aussie Rescue..2 7 month? old brother and sister.
Cliff and Syd. they all got along well from July of 06 until the beginning of this year, when Cliff redirected excitement at seeing a squirrel into aggression toward Sophie. We had also adopted an elderly aussie named Grace a year ago..and soon after the first incident between Sophie and Cliff, Grace was attacked by Cliff. in total there were 6 dog fights since the beginning of the year until the end of May.
We ended up placing Grace with my folks, as she is about 14, and had been attacked 3 times, the 2nd 2 times the young female Syd joined Cliff in the attacks.
the last attack was both young dogs ganging up on Sophie, their adopted "mom"...and it was a very bad deal. each fight has escalated, and Syd learned to attack with Cliff by the 3rd time he started a fight.
now we keep Sophie totally seperated from the young dogs, and I even keep the young dogs apart (one crated) unless my husband is right with them to make sure Cliff doesn't redirect onto his sister...he has never done so, and the behaviorist said that the 2 young dogs are their "own" pack and are trying to eliminate the older girls.
I stay in the bedroom with Sophie evenings and through the night, while the young dogs are out in the main house with my husband. during the day I have Syd and Cliff in a big back room, with lots of windows and one of them crated and I rotate them between the crate, and the backyard when the weather is ok to do so.
here is my question: is this highly abnormal behavior???
am I wrong to resist putting the young dogs down??? they are very people friendly and loving to my husband and I.
they have never been crated before...we were always a pack that was together all the time..we always left the dogs loose together when we were not home..they always seemed like a happy group...until the young dogs turned approximately 3 yrs of age at the beginning of the year.
they are all neutered/spayed but I had started Grace the eldest dog on a herbal supplement for incontinence back in the fall...it has phytoestrogens and I made alot of inquiries and was told that maybe the phytoestrogens started something.
I am a vet, and I have done thyroid tests on Cliff, both at MSU and by Jean Dodds Hemopet..it was basically normal at both places.
any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
thank you
Carol Galka

oops..I missed a mistake in my original post..it has been 6 fights up until the end of March, not May..sorry!
Carol

Please clarify: How many dogs are now in your home?

How many are allowed to hang out together (if any), and which ones are they?

The "behaviorist" sounds like an idiot. (Quote: I took my dogs to a behaviorist in March. she said they were basically "nice" dogs..but a week later the 2 young ones attacked the elder dog..and now the behaviorist is calling their behavior "highly abnormal" and suggesting euthanasia as a viable option. ) No mention of the fact that you have a pack left on their own?

You mention "even keeping the young dogs apart" as if this was some kind of extreme behavior.

Your post is loaded with red flags about leaving packs of dogs alone together, no crates ever, and more.

But please detail the exact situation, as it is right now, as far as number and division go.

P.S. Welcome to the forum.

Grace is no longer here..there are 3 dogs here..Sophie the original dog of the family who was attacked 6 weeks ago, by the 3 year old brother and sister, Cliff and Sydney..
I keep Sophie totally seperate from the 2 young dogs..we rotate dogs, Sophie in the main house during the day..while the young dogs are in a back room with lots of windows and access to the backyard.
during the day,I am keeping the 2 young dogs in the same room, but one of them is in a crate or the backyard so they are never loose together until evening when my husband is home and right with them...the young dogs are loose together evenings and throughout the night, sleeping in the living room with my husband on the couch.
in the evenings and through the night Sophie and I are in the bedroom with the door closed.
it is rainy today, and I am trying something different..Sophie is loose in the main house, Sydney is locked in the bedroom with lots of windows, and Cliff is in the back room, so I do not have to keep one of the dogs in a crate all day. they were never in crates at all until recently when we began seperating the young dogs from Sophie after the very severe attack occured.
does this clarify enough? sorry if I am not clear enough.
Carol

Carol, I'm not experienced w/ multidog interactions, but I just wanted to say welcome to the forum. And ditto to what Connie said.

That behaviorist is an idiot...

There are many members here who manage multi dog households where the dogs don't particularly like each other.
One of them will chime in soon to comment on your situation...

Aside from the fact that I would not have the two younger ones (who have ganged up to attack) alone together ever, what is the main problem now?

Are you unhappy for some reason that they are separated?

Because this is what you should have done a looooong time ago. WHY would you leave together dogs who had multiple fights?

Some twos cannot be together. Fact of life. A pack of three (or, heaven help us, more) should never be allowed to run as a pack. That makes you humans with a dog pack as housemates, NOT "a pack that's always together." You were leaving the pack to form hierarchy and run themselves. You were not in any way a "pack leader."

And you allowed dogs who you should have been pack leader to, to be attacked. Multiple times.

Now you are beginning to see some very basic truths about owning more than one (and especially more than two) dogs.

First I say "Good for you" that you are stepping up. A little late, but still, "Good for you." You sure as heck did not get any kind of useful advice at all from so-called professionals, so you didn't have much of a chance.

My next step would be to ensure that the two younger dogs were never alone together.

How much and what kind of training have you done? If none, just say so. You have started the right route, so why not keep going and become a real pack leader?

The "problem" is right here:

 Quote: Carol Galka

dogpack

And this:

 Quote: Carol Galka

6 dog fights

After the first one, why were they ever allowed to be together again?

THANK YOU so very much for your replies...I am very very stressed having the dogs all seperated, as my sense is that our family unit is disassembled. we were so used to the dogs doing everything with us, having 3 dogs sleeping in bed with us, etc, and now my husband and I do not even sleep in the same room together...
when you say never have the 2 young dogs alone together...do you mean just when they are not able to be supervised??? is it ok to have the 2 young ones together when my husband is with them? I am reluctant to have them together with me as the only human present, as I am not at all inclined to break up another dog fight. ever. as a vet I have been bitten once in 32 yrs of practice. now in the past 4 months I have been bitten severely during 5 of the 6 attacks. the one time I was not bitten was when Cliff went after Sophie but I had him muzzled at the time..it was still very difficult to get him off of Sophie, and Sophie has severe hip dysplasia, so it is not good for her to get rolled and pounced on, even if she is not being bitten.
as far as owning more than 1 dog, if I could find good loving homes for the 2 young dogs I would certainly do so. Aussie Rescue is not being helpful at all...that is a whole different story...they will not guarantee returning them to me rather than doing euthanasia, should their "evaluation" determine that they are not adoptable. I am a foster home for aussie rescue, so i do not understand why they will not just let me keep Syd and Cliff here while looking for 'one dog only' homes for each of them, or at least for Cliff.
I am of course feeling mega guilt that I was a bad pack leader and allowed Sophie and Grace to be injured and stressed so deeply.
I had lots of "signals" as fas as intuitions that the young dogs were being too wild, but I could not get my husband to believe me or agree with me. even after the first attack on Grace, my husband insisted that I was imagining things..that Cliff was just smelling her (yeah..my blood was all over the kitchen..it looked like a CSI scene..and I had to pry Cliff off of Grace's neck..) and my husband did not believe they were really serious about the attacks until he was in on one of the fights, and could not get Cliff to let go of Grace..and then we had 2 additional times where Syd and cliff both attacked Grace and Sophie attacked Syd to protect Grace..4 dogs attached to each other and 2 humans unable to pry them apart for minutes...eternities...
I am very traumatized..Sophie is traumatized..the young dogs are stressed and puzzled why they are being isolated...
as far as training..very minimal..basic sit and stay..now we are working with Cliff with halticollar on walks, and shock collar (to get him to come back more reliably when he gets excited outdoors) and the behaviorist taught us about eye contact/reward system that we have added into the daily routine.
I have started taking the dogs for walks seperately...and making them sit/stay and do the eye contact game during the walks...but it is way late, and maybe too little too late???
Carol

in response to the great Q: why were they ever allowed to be together after the 1st attack?
well, my husband didn't really believe that it was as significant as I described, even though I had severe bite wounds. Grace did not have as obvious of wounds as me, as she was shaken and held by her neck..small puncture wounds...I thought it was a major problem and was holding my breath every moment of each day...my husband just said I was being over reactive.
so...there were 6 incidents within a span of 4 months before my husband agreed that it was not "working" keeping the pack together. even after we rehomed Grace..I was very concerned about Sophie's safety and my husband disregarded my concerns. then when we went to the behaviorist in mid March she did not suggest seperating the remaining 3 dogs...so we thought we were doing the correct things, until a week later when Sophie was attacked so severely.
I am such a dolt...and living with 24/7 guilt/regret/kicking myself and trying to figure out what is best for the dogs first and foremost...and to maybe someday be able to live without nonstop dogstress as my goal for my own sanity and wellbeing.
Carol