Hello..

I posted on a forum not too long ago about the fact I'm planning on buying a working Cane Corso and doing Personal Protection and other dog sports with him/her. A woman replied and told me to never do personal protection with a Corso but to stick with Schutzhund. A few years back I talked to a girl who is VERY passionate about Schutzhund and German Shepherds, and told me to do Personal Protection.

For some background info, the Cane Corso almost went extinct in the 1970s so they don't have nearly the amount of generations as the GSD does, therefore may have some temperament problems in specific bloodlines. They are SUPPOSED to be extremely stable, hardy, discerning dogs with an unmatched guarding ability (I know most of you will beg to differ), but gentle with children and accepting of non-aggressors.

I just want your guys' opinions. I might be totally wrong, but the way I see the difference between SchH and PP is, is that in SchH, dogs are taught to go after the sleeve and not really the aggressor, while in PP, they are taught to after the aggressor and not necessarily only the sleeve. There has to be a balance between fight and prey drive in PP -- and while there should be in SchH too, there isn't always. And vice versa. I've watched way too many movies of sleeve-happy GSDs and Corso. I don't know which to pick.

I want to teach my dog personal protection, for actual protection and to keep the dog working and happy. I don't just want to do sport in the form of SchH, so I'm not sure why that woman told me not to do PP. Your opinions are much appreciated.

It's been discussed a number of times.

Links to one of the threads ...
http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=147216

A good way to find discussions on that topic is to do a search with the terms,
+rambeau +corso +protection
The + means those words must be included in the results. Will Rambeau, one of the forum's moderators, has commented extensively on this subject. He has some pretty deep experience in the field.

Originally Posted By: Reina Wishart;"I posted on a forum not too long ago about the fact I'm planning on buying a working Cane Corso and doing Personal Protection and other dog sports with him/her".
First of all before you decide on a breed make up your mind what you want from the dog because the behavior triggers are different for a dog trained in PP and one trained for schutzhund. That does not make one breed or discipline better, just different and because of that require different training methods, even from the beginning of your training. As you said the Corso is a relatively new breed and has not, for the most part, been selected for work and because of that the breed has suffered. It is always good to remember two things, one you get what you select for and two, because a trait once resided in a breed does not mean it will remain there if not aggressively selected for on an ongoing basis.
Originally Posted By: Reina Wishart; "the way I see the difference between SchH and PP is, is that in SchH, dogs are taught to go after the sleeve and not really the aggressor, while in PP, they are taught to after the aggressor and not necessarily only the sleeve".
Understand both the sleeve and the suit is just training equipment used to teach and test the dog, no more and no less. They don’t define the dog, breeding and training does that.
Originally Posted By: Reina Wishar; "I've watched way too many movies of sleeve-happy GSDs and Corso. I don't know which to pick". I have been training working dogs for over 30 years and I can’t identify which dogs are “sleeve happy” from just a video. Moreover military and police K-9’s worldwide are, for the most part, trained on a sleeve in an effort to obtain a strong hard grip. Additionally IMO it is less stressful for a dog to bite a suit than a sleeve. It is good to remember a trained K-9 is part of a team and as such is expected to hold the suspect after its initial grip until the rest of his or her team gets there. The dog is not expected to grip and re-grip, slash and tear because in doing this the dog will cause unnecessary damage that will assuredly end up in court especially if the suspect is found to be innocent and may give the suspect time to re-arm and or get away. There are some great Corso’s that are hell on four legs, but most women are not strong enough to train one in PP or schutzhund. That is not a sexist comment but IMO one based on reality of the strength of both. If I were suggesting a breed for you I would suggest a GSD not because they are necessarily better (whatever that means) as each breed brings different attributes to the table. Because within the GSD breed there are defined working lines and defined lines within those lines and most important for you for those hundred years biddability has been a major part of the breeds selection process. The Corso because it has not, for the most part, been selected for work is without these defined lines. That is not to say that you cannot find a good one it is just a hell of a lot more difficult. Permit me a metaphor; it is easier to find the car of your dreams in California than it is in North Dakota. Are there crap GSD’s i.e., weak drives and nerve, with schutzhund working titles, you bet and more than you would imagine but if you know what you are looking at, sans scores, there are some damn fine breeding examples producing some damn fine pups I think you would enjoy owning and training. One can tell from those defined lines which will have a tendency to challenge there handler and which won’t. Which are headstrong and which are not, which have a calm disposition and which probably will not etc. etc. These are just some of the benefits of 100 years of the selection process for GSD. Given that it is folly to believe that a correctly bred and trained GSD will not protect its owner, just as it’s folly to believe a (fill in the blank breed) will protect you just because it is a (fill in the blank breed).

Excellent post Norman!

Thanks

Please don't assume I know nothing about the breed, ok? Thanks for the help but it didn't really help. I just wanted an answer, not a post about how much you know. Just because I'm a woman, doesn't mean I'm 5'0" and can't handle anything more than a Shih Tzu. I love the Cane Corso, I'm not looking for one only because I want to do personal protection or Schutzhund with it. There are other and more important reasons why I picked the breed.

" Because within the GSD breed there are defined working lines and defined lines within those lines and most important for you for those hundred years biddability has been a major part of the breeds selection process. The Corso because it has not, for the most part, been selected for work is without these defined lines. "

Yes, I know. I already said something similar to that. While there aren't nearly as much Cane Corso breeders that work there dogs as GSD breeders, there ARE some with high titles and great results in both personal protection AND Schutzhund, therapy, iron dog, weight pulling, cattle/sheep herding, and numerous others, just like the GSD. There just aren't as many.

Reina, from your post, it's pretty hard to tell exactly what you want.

You asked for opinions, but you never really clearly outlined what you wanted opinions on.
GSDs vs Cane Corsos? My opinion? Get a GSD.
I saw a Jack Russell Terrier do Schutzhund once; doesn't mean they're an ideal breed for it.
I'm sure Cane Corsos have done all those things... doesn't mean they're ideal for 'em.

PPD vs Schutzhund? What do you need a PPD for?

BTW, I'm probably in as good, or better shape than most of the posters on this forum... and my 60lb GSD can be a handful to control during bitework.
You can be the strongest woman in the world, you still ain't a man.

I thought Mr. Epstein gave an excellent opinion on the "points" of your post.

Maybe an actual question would result in more satisfactory answers. I've read your post several times, and if Mr. Epstein's post didn't really help at all, then I'm not really sure what you want opinions on.

JMO.

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

BTW, I'm probably in as good, or better shape than most of the posters on this forum... and my 60lb GSD can be a handful to control during bitework.
You can be the strongest woman in the world, you still ain't a man.

Ditto. And I have a 105 lb Rott. I literally had to have a helper at our club hold Quinn during our beginning training. It was not safe or appropriate for me to even try.

Anyway, bottom line is, even with the top bloodlines and MANY generations of selective breeding, most dogs will not be able to to serious personal protection. With so few of this breed being selectively bred for the temperament you describe wanting, your chances are even more slim. You may end up with a decent sport dog...

Please don't take anything said here personally. It is not meant to be. I too have an off breed, and if I wanted the dog you are describing, I would look first, and seriously, at the GSD.

 Quote: Reina Wishart

They are SUPPOSED to be extremely stable, hardy, discerning dogs with an unmatched guarding ability (I know most of you will beg to differ), but gentle with children and accepting of non-aggressors.

And this is basically the same description of most working dogs...

I'm not trying to choose between a Cane Corso and GSD, but between PP and Schutzhund since a lady told me not to do PP with a Corso.