Recently I prepaid a trainer, not knowing that she uses choke chains (yes I am an idiot). The problem is that she works for the place we board, groom and have daycare for our dogs. We are still working with her and the dogs are learning, but I am even less enamored of the choke chain as time goes on. Quick background Mr. Green- 8 months 20 pounds, mix. Rescue. Pepper- 11 pounds, 14 months, rescue. I have had both of the dogs together for about two months.

I was watching the Leerburg beginning obedience training video and it talked of the difference between "hard" and "soft" dogs. To me it's obvious that dogs have different personalities, especially mine. Pepper is "hard". I'm pretty sure that if I put a chain of nails around her neck she would pull until they were embedded, then look at me like I was still a wuss for even trying something like that- (not that I would of course). Mr. Green on the other hand is soft. He wants to please; he is the last dog that needs a choke chain for obedience training. I know this is going too far but I feel like he just looks at me like " I would have done what you wanted anyway, why do you have this chain on me?" I feel like I am hurting him, even though I don't give him corrections because I hate the sound of him choking. Again, Pepper seems like she could care less, but I still feel like a jerk for having a choke chain on a small dog. Plus I am like 6'5 280 and really feel like I could hurt them.

So what to do?

The problems I need to correct are:

1. Both dogs pulling, especially when they are walked together, which has to happen a lot of the time. this compounds all of the problems we have, as if one is pulling and the other is not, its difficult to get one to stop. Also they are like a team of killers when they get riled up.

2. Mr Green barking and lunging at other dogs, Mr. Green looks like he wants to play with other dogs and just gets frustrated when he can't.

3. Pepper going after people. Pepper seems to want to really go after some people, especially when they are both excited. She used to bark at everyone regardless, but is much better.

So what should I be walking them on? I have tried pretty much everything .
Mr Green will not wear a Halti, but Pepper has had one and was OK on it. It didn't correct anything though, and when she had it off she was just like before. Both dogs have had regular harnesses, along with the Sporn type. If I had a sled for them those would have been perfect. I have walked Mr. Green on a prong collar with a leerburg DD collar for backup. It seemed to work better then anything I have tried before, but takes longer to put on, but I will use it if it is the best option). And both have been on nylon-type flat collars. I tried a check chain type collar on Pepper, but it seemed too big and was ineffective. Maybe I can try one that fits her better.

I realize that equipment doesn't matter as much as training, but I feel like I have to find a consistent solution instead of trying all kinds of stuff.

I am thinking micro prongs or leather flat collars. Thanks for reading and I would appreciate any help.

First, what are your plans regarding the trainer?

I plan to work with the trainer if she does not have a problem with me changing the equipment. If she does we will find someone else.

Lots of talk about collars.

Does this trainer use marker training?

 Quote: Paul Green

and the dogs are learning, but I am even less enamored of the choke chain as time goes on.

This is what I was getting at.

They are still learning. No need for corrections yet. Not even for a hard dog if it doesn't know the commands.

Your instincts are telling you that there is a better way to do this and it is all right there in the video you have.

Thanks for the comments. What do you think the best equipment is to stop a dog from puling would be? The problem is that I often have to walk both, and if they see another dog then its on, and they are really hard to control.

Is it possible for you to work with them on leash manners separately?

My experience is that no collar is going to "fix" anything---the collar is just a way for you to physically communicate reminders to the dog. But it cannot stop them from pulling. The dog has to choose not to pull, because it's not getting what he wants.

I like "crazy waling" as a learning technique, but I don't know how well it would work with two beginner dogs. But the technique is simple--when the dog pulls, you turn and go in the other direction. Change directions frequently to keep the dog constantly unsure of the direction of travel. It will force him to pay attention to you. A pulling dog must not be allowed to head in the direction they are trying to get to---or they are inadvertently rewarded for the pulling. If you must, simply plant your heels and do not budge as long as there is any tension on the leash. Only move forward when THE DOG decides to offer slack in the lead.

Definitely one dog at a time, 'til you are walking one dog anywhere with no problems.

Get yourself acquainted with marker training. The Basic OB DVD goes over it pretty thoroughly.

http://leerburg.com/pdf/markers-clickers.pdf So does this.:smile:

I've only gotten to really use marker training on 2 dogs. Other people may have better ways teach leash manners, but here is one way to get the point across that you want the leash to have slack in it.

First I'd put the leash on the dog in the house and walk around. I'd mark every time the leash was loose. Just start walking, and if the dog goes with you, but doesn't pull, then mark and reward. Stop, and if the dog stops with you with slack in the leash, mark and reward.

After the dog always leaves the leash slack in the house, then I'd move to a new location, like the yard, and work there 'til the leash was alway loose. Then move to another spot, etc., etc. All the while being careful to slowly add little distractions(location, people, dogs, toys) at a rate where they don't overwhelm the dog and they can work through it and get used to that distraction. If they do get distracted by something and pull, no big deal. Wait 'em out, and the second the leash goes slack, mark and reward.

Then, after they are getting the idea that you want the leash slack, you can up the ante and start requiring them to be in position beside you with the leash loose.

Obviously, this is done over several short, upbeat sessions. Usually over days or weeks. Just depends on how quick your dog gets it. May take a day with some dogs, longer with others. No need to rush. You've got your's and the dog's whole life to walk.:smile:

Thats not the best example in the world, but hopefully it gets the point across.

Read up on using markers, though. It is very forgiving to training mistakes. If you screw up, so what, the dog got a treat for nothing. Not a big deal. Mark the behavior you want the next time.:smile:

Hopefully someone else can better outline a specific training method for loose leash walking. I suck at wording stuff if you can't tell.

 Quote: connie sutherland

focus on you and basic ob are practiced and practiced until it's default behavior. It starts indoors, and then it moves to another room indoors, and then maybe to a room with distractions, and then to a very quiet outdoor spot, and so on. It doesn't have to be "tricky," but it does take patience.

This is quoted from a completely different thread, but I thought that it gave a better example of a "schedule" for adding distraction.

She has things more spaced out and more gradual than I listed.

I can personally recommend an anti-pull harness, which worked well on Muttley. At first I got him an "Easy-Walk", which has the lead clip on the chest, but it does not provide for good correction when he walks in front. I know he should walk to the side, but it is easier for him to go ahead on narrow trails and that is what I prefer. But I lost that harness after a couple of uses and then I bought the anti-pull harness at Walmart for about $10, and it seems to do the job. The lead clips to his back and it provides some control when he wants to pull ahead. Now he usually walks with a fairly loose lead. Muttley is a rather "hard" dog and the prong collars were not very effective.

But neither of these harnesses are good if the dog decides to back up to get loose.