 Pack Leader or Predator
#240185 - 05/18/2009 01:32 PM |
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I'd also like some feedback on this article Cesar Millan: Pack Leader or Predator?. This Lee Charles Kelley fellow is advocating a "Natural Training" method I think is based purely on prey drive.
According to David Mech, the world’s leading experts on the behavior of wild wolves, real wolf packs don’t have pack leaders.
And thus he says that all our training methods based on pack structure and being a pack leader are bunk. He says when we think we're acting like a pack leader we're really acting like a dog's predator and thus are eliciting a fear response.
I think dog training methods (like other education methods) are really hard to measure how effective they are. Just look at the changes in our elementary school systems. Some have been good and some have been bad, but you really won't know for years if what you're doing right now is "best".
I don't really agree with LCK, but I don't know that I'm smart enough to discuss it intelligently. I was hoping some of you with a lot more experience than I could respond.
 Suzzie, the Australian Shepherd |
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Doug Alcorn ]
#240187 - 05/18/2009 01:46 PM |
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Wow. I never saw so much of this before:
"That’s a fact."
"These are all facts."
"That’s a fact."
"I know for a fact that this is true."
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#240188 - 05/18/2009 01:50 PM |
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"And thus he says that all our training methods based on pack structure and being a pack leader are bunk."
What if you were somehow convinced that wild canids did not have packs and pack structure and pack leaders?
Would you then think that being our domesticated dogs' leaders was wrong or unwise or unnecessary? Or would you think that the way we live with our dogs makes it necessary that we, the humans, function as the leaders?
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#240189 - 05/18/2009 01:50 PM |
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Natalya Zahn ]
#240190 - 05/18/2009 01:51 PM |
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But ... but .... that guy said ""I know for a fact that this is true."
So it must be. Right?
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#240191 - 05/18/2009 01:54 PM |
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"And thus he says that all our training methods based on pack structure and being a pack leader are bunk."
What if you were somehow convinced that wild canids did not have packs and pack structure and pack leaders?
Would you then think that being our domesticated dogs' leaders was wrong or unwise or unnecessary?
Also good to remember - humans are not, nor will we ever be, canids of any kind. Our dogs live with us under circumstances that are quite different than those of any wild pack...
~Natalya
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#240192 - 05/18/2009 01:57 PM |
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But ... but .... that guy said ""I know for a fact that this is true."
So it must be. Right?
Oh! So he did! And since it has heretofore been blogged, it must so be true.
~Natalya
*Sorry Doug, we are in no way picking on you for posting that article... just being snarky. 
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#240193 - 05/18/2009 01:57 PM |
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Yeah. I'm not sure anybody has a monopoly on "the" truth. There's no single right answer.
But one thing I do take away from this article is the positive effect of engaging with dogs using THEIR ways--down on their level, using body gestures and eye contact. Dogs cannot interact with us on human terms, so the best we can do is to meet halfway using our human-translated imitation of canine behavior as best we understand it. I can see the wisdom in that.
Cinco | Jack | Fanny | Ellie | Chip | Deacon |
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#240194 - 05/18/2009 02:03 PM |
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Would you then think that being our domesticated dogs' leaders was wrong or unwise or unnecessary? Or would you think that the way we live with our dogs makes it necessary that we, the humans, function as the leaders?
Of course not. I'm the leader because it's my house. If any of my dogs think they can find a better living situation than what they've got, good luck to them! LOL But until then, in exchange for the comforts I supply them, they have to comply with the rules of my house: Keep your teeth to yourself, and pee outside. Seems like a pretty good deal to me.
Cinco | Jack | Fanny | Ellie | Chip | Deacon |
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Re: Pack Leader or Predator
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#240197 - 05/18/2009 02:56 PM |
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Wow. I never saw so much of this before:
"That’s a fact."
"These are all facts."
"That’s a fact."
"I know for a fact that this is true."
With all this being said in the article, where are the links to the scientific studies that disprove all prior canine behavioral studies that make this in fact - fact?
I didn't see any.
To me, yes, this is a controversial topic and therefore requries even that much more evidence to support the conclusion. Unfortunately, when I went looking in the article for the supporting evidence, I couldn't find any.
It does bring up a very interesting point of view, and one worth taking a deeper look into - but it doesn't warrant, in my mind, a complete disregard for what has worked for so long in terms of canine behavior.
There may well in fact come a point in time where this particular point of view DOES become the prominent theory on candid behavior, but it isn't at this point and therefore should be viewed with a grain of salt - and an inquisitive mind.
Bottom line, there simply isn't enough scientific evidence to fully support this theory at this point.
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