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Compulsion....as a dog training tool
#20985 - 05/28/2002 12:57 PM |
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Because some previous posts in another category discussed various forms of compulsion I decided to start this thread and see how big of a debate we could drum up.
Since of man's first encounter with and attempt to domesticate the wild wolf dog training has used one form of compulsion or another in order to create and cement the bond between dog and owner, servant and master, etc. Whether it be food, praise, pain avoidance, leashes and collers man has always used compulsion to direct or redirect a dog's behaviour to achieve an end result. Herding, hunting, coursing, protecting, playing, being companions. All dog behaviour has been shaped by man in one way or another. Otherwise dogs would do whatever they please. In order to live with man dogs must be controlled to some extent.
How do you use compulsion? What do you define as compulsion?
All replies eagerly anticipated.
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Re: Compulsion....as a dog training tool
[Re: Melissa Blazak ]
#20986 - 05/28/2002 01:30 PM |
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I like to think of all dog training as the strengthening of a basic bond (between my dogs and me).
As Ed Frawley likes to point out, I have (as the pack leader) a profound responsibility to my dogs. I feed them, I shelter them, and I ensure that other dogs are not allowed to harm them.
And, along the same lines, if I have my dogs trained only up to a point... say, the point where I cannot recall them under distraction, they chase a squirrel into the street, and get run over by a car... then I have failed in my responsibility.
Many dogs require a certain amount of compulsion to understand that obedience is not negotiable. It's not a game. And I like to believe that, as a dog gets older and more mature, he begins to understand that you are looking out for his best interests.
In my experience, few dogs can be trained to be 100% reliable without some use of compulsion. I wish that it were not so--but there it is.
Pete Felknor
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Re: Compulsion....as a dog training tool
[Re: Melissa Blazak ]
#20987 - 05/28/2002 02:00 PM |
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Caniche wrote: "Whether it be food, praise, pain avoidance, leashes and collers man has always used compulsion to direct or redirect a dog's behaviour to achieve an end result."
Do you want to explain this statement to me? What part of using food or praise is compulsive?
Compulsive training punishes and rewards the animal through the use of unpleasant stimuli. You punish the dog by presenting it with something unpleasant. If the dog refuses to down you correct the snot outa him with the prong. Or, you reward the dog by taking away, or omitting, something that is unpleasant for it. Like teaching a forced retrieve. You prong the hell outa Fido on a tie out untill he takes the dumbell in his mouth.
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Re: Compulsion....as a dog training tool
[Re: Melissa Blazak ]
#20988 - 05/28/2002 02:33 PM |
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Compulsion as I understand it is to drive or urge with force OR irresistibly; to necessitate that someone or something (being a dog) do something (say sit) that they would not do under normal circumstances. IMHO it can mean using a positive to create a positive outcome. But can also mean using a negative to create a positive outcome.
So, in effect, using a hot dog to get a dog to sit, down, etc. is a form of compulsion (bribery, etc. the hot dog is irresistible) because at first that dog would not sit if you did not have the treat in your hand. You are urging that dog to perform an exercise using food.
That's just my 2 cents.
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Re: Compulsion....as a dog training tool
[Re: Melissa Blazak ]
#20989 - 05/28/2002 02:42 PM |
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Nope, I don't think that is correct.
You are inducing the dog to sit with a treat.
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Re: Compulsion....as a dog training tool
[Re: Melissa Blazak ]
#20990 - 05/28/2002 03:01 PM |
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According to the Random House Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language 2nd ed., newly revised and updated
Compulsion: the act of compelling; constraint; COERCION
You are coercing your dog to do something by offering food as a reward.
Is this not correct?
Heck, if someone gave me a hotdog (gourmet German sausage with saurkraut, fried onions and hot mustard) I'd roll over too!
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Re: Compulsion....as a dog training tool
[Re: Melissa Blazak ]
#20991 - 05/28/2002 03:06 PM |
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A Rose by any other name: Just a couple of definitions relative to behavior.
Learning takes place when there is a relatively permanent change in behavior due to practice or environmental experience.
Escape Training: Generally a dog will yield to lighter forms of pressure. To place a dog in a sit position, you apply downward pressure to the rump and upward on the leash, the dog assumes the sit position to ESCAPE the pressure.
Avoidance Training: A dog learns not to make a wrong response in order to avoid vocal and/or physical correction.
I see both terms being used, just called different names. I've always found that interesting.
DFrost
Any behavior that is reinforced is more likely to occur again. |
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Re: Compulsion....as a dog training tool
[Re: Melissa Blazak ]
#20992 - 05/28/2002 03:11 PM |
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If that was the Random House Unabridged Dictionary of Dog Training, then I might be swayed. In this context the term compulsion does not include using positive rewards, other than removal of unpleasant stimuli.
Coersion is not inducement. The two basic terms are inducive training and compulsive training. Inducive is basically using pleasant stimuli and compulsion is unpleasant stimuli.
In your example of sitting for a nice wurst, THAT is a perfect example of inducive training. Not compulsion. There is no coersion, it is like working for the mob or working for Intel. One pays you to work, inducive. You want the money so you work to get it. The other is gonna "pay" you if you don't work, compulsive. You choose to work because if you don't you're gonna end up like Hoffa.
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Re: Compulsion....as a dog training tool
[Re: Melissa Blazak ]
#20993 - 05/28/2002 03:17 PM |
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GROAN...OK I suppose you could be correct :rolleyes: (You have no idea how hard it was for me to type this!)
If compulsion = negative Then I guess induction = positive.
BUT.....it is a fine line to be sure and can be construed either way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
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Re: Compulsion....as a dog training tool
[Re: Melissa Blazak ]
#20994 - 05/28/2002 03:21 PM |
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Originally posted by Caniche:
You are coercing your dog to do something by offering food as a reward. With food the dog is being offered a *choice* -- "to do" or "not to do" -- for a reward(food). In this case, compulsion only rears its pretty head if the dog *chooses* "not to do" and along with withholding the food(reward) you also yank his chain to *make* him do it.
Ellen Nickelsberg |
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