Well I think we should continue that discussion here.. I didn't want to close it, but since it is my first day on the job and all....

Todd wrote:

Not trying to be a smartass. But I have to ask.

quote:
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I do not use a clicker - hated it - or treats or toys in training. I do not withold food, I do not use prongs or chokes or pinches. I do not push rears down but I do place a hand on the ass end when I ask them to sit initially.
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So do you walk around and wait for the dog to do something. Then give the command. For instance, the dog starts to sit. Do you then say sit. So after enough 'repeatings' as Bernhard would say. The dog associates the asking with the action?

Todd,
Really you said that? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Oh yes! Todd squirts them into compliance! Hehehe but really, that is a weird thing for you to say....I don't understand. I think total positive training is not only a silly idea, but hard to do as well for the normal person.. you REALLY REALLY need to be gifted to take a dog from pup to champ with ZERO compulsion...That's JMHO. My hats off to thoes who can do it...

This thread was a continuation of the dog doesn't like to walk thread... read and catch up with us Lonny.. then post away!

no, no, no!

I said the second part. I was quoting someone else in another thread. Deanna moved it here.

Shoot.. sorry guys, my bad.... I didn't think that sounded like Todd lol.. I'm always behind sorry <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

No I don't do that Todd. What I am looking for is an explanation of how everything in training is compulsion. I am not a trainer and not looking for a scrap - just can someone please explain it without the side comments. Or explain the varying levels that would apply to my situation. That is all I am looking for, and it's what I have tried to grasp on other boards and I have not had it explained properly (or I am too thick) and I am sure the folks here can explain it to me so I will "get it". I am not a trainer and look here for experienced people to explain things. Thanks again. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was working on my reply in the other thread, so I'll try to approximate it here.

Addressing Josh, who said that the reason the majority of people here are so big on compulsion is that they are training working dogs (not his exact words, but what I understand his meaning to be). I beg to differ. I consider a working dog to be a Police K9, SAR dog, seeing eye/assistance dog, etc. The majority of people here train for sport, or have companion animals. While the dog should certainly think that this is his job, I don't think that this is the same as a "Working Dog". What might work well for competition obedience isn't neccessarily appropriate for SAR or for basic house dog obedience. You might be hard pressed to find a police K9 that has been trained with positive reinforcement only, but you'll be just as hard pressed to find an assistance dog that has NOT been trained primarily with positive reinforcement; and seeing eye/assistance dogs MUST be reliable. How do you train an assistance dog to ignore other dogs, people, cats, etc., without prong collar corrections? It is done routinely.

Deanna, I think part of the problem communicating has to do with understanding terminology. "Positive" reinforcement does not equal "pleasant", and "negative" reinforcement does not equal "unpleasant". "Compulsion", "correction", and "punishment" are three different things. You can compel a dog without it being a correction, and you can correct a dog without it being a punishment. My hesistancy to advise dragging a dog in this case isn't an opposition to compulsion in a general sense, but rather, that it's probably not neccessary, and could easily be counterproductive.

Todd, you finally got my point! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

No I don't do that Todd. What I am looking for is an explanation of how everything in training is compulsion. I am not a trainer and not looking for a scrap - just can someone please explain it without the side comments. I was serious. I know people who 'train' like that. I was trying to figure out how you train so I could give an answer to 'your situation' Which BTW you haven't told us.

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How do you train an assistance dog to ignore other dogs, people, cats, etc., without prong collar corrections?

Breed low prey drive dogs. I think that would work. Boy, I am in a feisty mood tonight. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />