I have a question on my dogs. I'll do my best not to be too confusing, or too long. I have 4 shepherds, one is a mix I think, maybe with lab, ages 6,5,4, and 2. One female, spayed, is 6. The rest are males, with the 4 year old not being neutered. My biggest problem is the 5 yr old zeroes in on him(4 yr old) and attacks. It happens quickly, always outside. He out weighs the 4 yr old by 30 pounds. The 4 yr old, doesn't start it, IMO, but he does growl at times, at both of the male dogs, to me it is a warning to just leave him alone, non confrontational. For instance if he is curled up on the floor and one of the others walks too close, he growls softly.
I do my best to keep them separated. They do not go outside together, knowingly. The 5 yr old is a great escape artist, and can open latches quite well, and 2 gates now easily. The last attack I thought he was confined when I let the 4 yr old out. He does not attack him inside the house, all can be out together in the house, and all is fine, supervised of course. I would not leave them alone together to test it.
Normally one or the other is crated.

So, the 4 yr old plays well with the girl, but he doesn't play with either of the boys. The girl plays equally well with everyone, and the other 2 boys play well together. It leaves me to wonder since the 4 yr old is the only one unaltered, if that is causing the problem. Is that possible?

I do not have intentions of breeding, he has no opportunities to breed other dogs either. The reason I had for not neutering was I won't leave him at the vet. My friend who worked for a vet, said she thinks I could stay with him till they sedate him, and pick him up the same day.
I do agility with the 4 yr old, and he has been around 100's of dogs. He is not dog aggressive, but he is not overly friendly looking to play either, if that makes sense. He wants to work for his toy, and that is all his world revolves around.
It is not like they all have to get along and play together, though of course it would be nice. I've committed to crating 100% of the time when letting outside to prevent another attack.
So it is something I can live with and make work, that is not a problem. But I can see the body language change even with the other male towards the 4 yr old. Is it the neutering thing? Does he give off different vibes not being fixed?

 Quote: Sue Kobus

Is it the neutering thing? Does he give off different vibes not being fixed?

I'd say he is giving off vibes whether or not they have to do with his not being neutered; I couldn't say.

I like the committed to crating 100% of the time when letting outside idea because it is the safest most effective way to end the bad behavior; neutered or not. I'm a 1 dog gal, though, so what do I know; I'm sure others with multiple dogs may have more suggestions for you.

Sometimes I wish I was a one dog gal myself, but probably never going to happen! 4 dogs is a lot to handle, even when most get along like ham and eggs. I have been upping the individual time with the 5 yr old, trying to tighten things up a bit. He is a bit more of a challenge to handle than the other 3 combined, hardheaded, stubborn, and strong as an ox. I have individual time with each dog every day, just sometimes wish it was more.

Since your question is would neutering help, my guess is that since your dog is a matured adult (age 4) that it probably wouldn't at this point. Dogs need to be neutered as puppies to avoid that "adult maleness".

However, I have had dogs neutered as adults who have stopped doing such behaviours as marking and "lipstick" after they were fixed. As far as behaviour and aggression goes, there is no guarantee. My most dominant male is one who was neutered at 8 months, and my most submissive dog was neutered at around 16 months.

I sometimes feel overwhelmed with my number of dogs too. I have two long-term fosters, though, and when (if!!!) they ever get adopted I think I'm going to take a long, deep breather!!!! I am lucky to have relatively low-key dogs. I do have to separate though, especially when not supervised. Such is the life of owning a dog pack.

I do have to say that the actual neuter surgery is really no big deal. It is very routine for a vet and the dogs usually don't seem to have many side effects (pain, soreness) as humans do. My guys are ready to go as soon as they wake up. I've stayed for all of my dogs' surgeries. If you do get it done it might be a good idea to schedule a dental at the same time, it will save money and stress on the dog.

Well I decided to try the neuter route. I talked to my new vet and they would let me stay for the sedation and pick him up after he comes to. He doesn't do well with strangers handling him was my fear, and I just didn't want to stress him into a state of panic.
I switched vets again, a friend of mine used to work for this one, and he has a shepherd also, (one of my adopted dogs was a surrender from his clinic) and seems extremely pleasant.
A little vaccination crazy, but he went with my rabies only plan, and was good with my raw feeding and thought my dogs looked great. He did inquire what I was feeding, which is good, and said I was doing fine.
I don't know if neutering will help, and as long as nothing goes wrong with a routine surgery, I hope it will still be a benefit.
He said roughly a two week recovery and could get back into the swing of things. But do you think it is safe to run an agility trial in two weeks and a day?

Don't be surprised if it doesn't 'fix' your problems.


Randy

ha ha, I can only hope!
It just strikes me as odd that it is just him, that's all. How can everyone else engage in play with each other, and he can't? I can take the others out in multiples for fetch, they have their toy and only retrieve their toy, and they got along fabulously, but he can't? Can't isn't the right word, it will just eventually turn into a fight is all. It doesn't matter really, but it is odd, and I was just wondering if the 'fixing' is part of it.

My quess is,
if nothing else changes neutering will change zippo in the dogs relationship with each other.
You can let them have it out or keep them seperated when not supervised.
Myself, I'd opt for seperation.

Put a clasp on the crate the dog can't do anything with so he stays where he belongs.

Randy

I'm still going with the separation. Apparently having it out hasn't helped any, and thankfully there hasn't been an emergency trip to the vet. It has happened twice, and that is two times too many. If I hadn't been there, I don't know if one would still be here, or maybe if I hadn't been there it wouldn't have happened at all. Can't rule out me being part of the problem, I'm handling things wrong I'm sure.
I had bought the Dog Aggression dvd from Leerburg, you think I could figure out the safe place I put it?
I've increased individual exercise, each one is doing a 2.5 mile run now a day. I bought myself a bike after 20+ years, what a great thing that is! I'm getting into shape, and my female with the weight problem is looking great.

I was going to recommend the Pack Structure DVD. This dog is not honouring your leadership (i.e. your rules). I think having toys around with this dog and other dogs out is premature at this point.

You will probably still have to separate him when you are not supervising (you can't be a leader if you're not there!) but may be able to improve his behaviour when you're there to control it.