I bought my shi tzu dog a filled huff bone. I decided to see what he would do if I took it away, if he would growl, since he has done it before. He will not growl if food is taken away, just highly valued food. One that smells very good. I am just thinking maybe I should not give it to him anymore. I truely was afraid. I did what I did last time, clap loud and say no. He does not know the command, leave it, or drop it. Would you first till he knows the two commands before giving him high valued treats or food. Im very frustrated. I know I have posted about this before. Should I redirect him with a different treat, his nose away from the one I need to take.

 Quote: jennifer schnegg

I bought my shi tzu dog a filled huff bone. I decided to see what he would do if I took it away, if he would growl, since he has done it before. He will not growl if food is taken away, just highly valued food. One that smells very good. I am just thinking maybe I should not give it to him anymore. I truely was afraid. I did what I did last time, clap loud and say no. He does not know the command, leave it, or drop it. Would you first till he knows the two commands before giving him high valued treats or food. Im very frustrated. I know I have posted about this before. Should I redirect him with a different treat, his nose away from the one I need to take.

Don't recall a back-story and this is a new thread, so may I ask: Why were you doing this? What was the idea behind giving him a high-value item to take it back?

Any reason he and the HV treat cannot be alone together in his crate?

What would you do if your provider handed you something wonderful, clapped loud, and yelled at you? Does he even know the word "no"?

If I were working on drop it, leave it, etc., I would start with trading up. That is, I would trade a better item for the item he has.

And I would indeed start working on it, but not this way.

Connie,

This is something I've been confused about, because of advice I've seen elsewhere and my own personal feelings. Jennifer, nothing that follows is aimed at you.

I've come to the conclusion that if I give Hans a treat or food, then take it away, I am acting like a jerk. At feeding time he sits about two feet away from his food dish and waits until it is filled and then we say "OK", and he goes for it. If he moves too soon a simple "no" stops him, and he waits for the "OK". It doesn't seem fair or right to give him his food and then take it away from him.

Treats are a little different story, as sometimes, when he's working on a bone, we have to move him. About a year ago he started growling when he'd do that, but we work on "drop it" and "leave it", and I think he's figured out that we always give it back to him after we've moved him and the growling has gone away. That's pretty much the only time a treat gets taken away, and then he gets it right back. (Come to think of it, he may have solved that problem himself. He hasn't laid down with a bone in place where I'd have to move him in a long time.)

BUT ... and there is always a but ... I've heard or read some people say that being able to take food away from your dog without the dog objecting is necessary for proper pack structure. I've chosen to reject that advice. Am I wrong?

Well, I don't disagree that we should be able to remove anything from the dog's mouth. If nothing else, I would want to be able to remove something dangerous with no danger to myself.

However, my way of going about it is not to give a wonderful new treat just to take it away. (Jennifer, this is not a swipe at you; many handlers do exactly that.)

I do exactly what you do with food, requiring a wait and a sit before I hand it over, as well as calm out-of-my-way behavior while I prepare bowls. They are eager, yes, but they are eager in a circle around me that gives me about a five-foot radius. They sit and anticipate passionately.

Treats are different, as you say. I too always return it if I have to move it or the dog (or if I must take it, I give something else). I just don't take what I have given just for the heck of it. I have required something from the dog to receive it, I have given it, and I really don't want my dogs to have anxiety over their food from me or their treats from me.

I also police them so no dog can approach another's food or treat.

I start soon after acquiring a dog to add items to the dish after I have put it down. My hand in his dish becomes a no-anxiety thing. I teach drop it and leave it by starting with trades, and as I mentioned, I start with a trade up.

I have acquired several dogs over the years who came with food-guarding or food-aggression behavior, and I've never had a problem with the patient way I describe of teaching the dog that his food is safe, that what I give I really give, and that if I have to take it back, it will still be OK.

I had to fish the end of a much-beloved bully stick out of the mouth and throat of my most recent acquisition last week, and it was absolutely no problem. I reached in, grabbed it and fished it out, and called him to follow me to the kitchen where he got something new in exchange for the dangerously short pizzle end. This was a dog who came with growling, hunching, snapping food-dish behavior a couple of years ago.

So -- yes, I'm with you. I understand the other POV, but it's not right for me. If I had less success with what I do, of course, I would change it. But so far I am batting a thousand (on this one thing ).

 Quote: rich pallechio

...Treats are a little different story, as sometimes, when he's working on a bone, we have to move him. About a year ago he started growling when he'd do that, but we work on "drop it" and "leave it", and I think he's figured out that we always give it back to him after we've moved him and the growling has gone away. That's pretty much the only time a treat gets taken away, and then he gets it right back. (Come to think of it, he may have solved that problem himself. He hasn't laid down with a bone in place where I'd have to move him in a long time.) ... BUT ... and there is always a but ... I've heard or read some people say that being able to take food away from your dog without the dog objecting is necessary for proper pack structure. I've chosen to reject that advice. Am I wrong?

But you ARE able to take it away. And IMHO you did it fairly by assuring the dog that what you give him you will not take back, or you will not take back without returning or replacing it.

You know that you can remove something dangerous from him, and he has no insecurity about food that you have granted.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Well, I don't disagree that we should be able to remove anything from the dog's mouth. If nothing else, I would want to be able to remove something dangerous with no danger to myself.

My wife is fearless in this regard. I once saw her go so deep into Hans mouth to remove something he shouldn't be eating that I saw her fingers wiggling out the other end.

Well, with food I also tell him the commands to "go back" , "sit", "down" at the place I tell him to go to, "come", then "sit", "shake" both paws one at a time, then I say ok, and he eats. I have him do all the commands before he eats. Sometimes I also take him to a place say behind the sofa or in the other room and then I walk to the kitchen and say ok, and then he can eat. I dont usually bother him when he eats. He is not food aggressive. That I know 100%. I may have gone about the high value treat the wrong way. If I knew how to teach the "drop it" command, I would do it. Also the " leave it" command. I think I know how to teach the " drop it" command, but have not done it yet. Oh, before, We go outside, I have quincey sit in front of the door, and "watch me", and only when he does it for a few minutes, then I go out first, and then say " ok". All this he knows. We just need to work on the other commands, then we'll be ok. Is the command " heel" really necessary to teach? thanks.

I taught leave it using this game, it worked like a charm on even my slow learner.

food shell game

I teach them to drop things by having an equally high value item and trading them for the one they have. I click the second they release the item and then give them what I have. Repeating the trading process several times. This way they learn that if I take something really good they get something really good in return.

I am also guilty of just shoving my hand down their throats if they have something dangerous, but none of mine have territorial issues when it comes to me.

 Quote: jennifer schnegg

... Is the command " heel" really necessary to teach? thanks.

Well, loose leash (no pulling) is nice, and you can teach it in your house so you are not having to compete with the allure of outdoor scents and sights in the beginner phase.

"I may have gone about the high value treat the wrong way. If I knew how to teach the "drop it" command, I would do it."

That video is a really good demo of teaching it.

Jennifer S, if you still have questions, I/we can type about trading to start the drop-it command.