Ray Fajardo wrote 06/27/2009 03:20 PM Head shaking and growling in bitework... #244543 - 06/27/2009 03:20 PM
Ray Fajardo Webboard User Reg: 08-25-2008 Posts: 125 Loc: Offline	I posted in the protection forum with no success hopefully I'll get some replies here. I'm curious... I read in an old post in the protection forum where some people dislike headshaking in the bitework. Is it correct to assume that they don't like it for sport (ie: deduction of points) but o.k. for real protection work. Also there was a reply to that which said it was ok so long as there is no growling associated with the headshaking. My question is what does it mean if the dog is growling. Could it be a sign of weak nerves (low thresholds or something). I'm assuming that maybe some of it will be affected by the helper...ie: if he/she is doing a lot of defensive posturing, eye balling and whip snapping etc... Thanks for you comments
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Scott Garrett wrote 06/27/2009 07:46 PM Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework... [Re: Ray Fajardo ] #244555 - 06/27/2009 07:46 PM
Scott Garrett Webboard User Reg: 03-01-2009 Posts: 645 Loc: NorCal Offline	One of the replies I got to my puppy growling during tug was that it was uncomfortable with something I was doing. I've also seen it said around here that the growling could be frustration of prey (ie: gimme that darned thing!). In my untrained experience and opinion, I think the tone of the growl and dog's posture matter a lot. Puppies growl while they play with each other but, a deep and menacing growl is something entirely different. To me, that would indicate that the dog is not happy. Hopefully some of the more experienced people see this when they come back from their weekend. I've recently found out that dog people are fairly inactive on forums during the weekends. http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/7701/neilpatrickharris.jpg
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Ray Fajardo wrote 06/28/2009 11:53 AM Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework... [Re: Scott Garrett ] #244573 - 06/28/2009 11:53 AM
Ray Fajardo Webboard User Reg: 08-25-2008 Posts: 125 Loc: Offline	Actually I like the headshaking, and really don't have a problem with the growling. I was told by an experienced helper that my pup actually gets mad when he bites the sleeve. The pup is 11 months old. But I was curious as to what some of the experienced people on the board here had to say about the growling. I had one helper (a different helper) try to quiet the pup when he started growling on the bite, even though the helper was making hard continuous eye contact, was squared up to him and snapping the whip repetitively making obvious defensive body language. I believe it was a warranted growl but the helper didn't seem to think so for some reason. I believe that he (that helper quieting the pup) was wrong...any comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance
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Elaine Boman wrote 06/28/2009 02:59 PM Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework... [Re: Ray Fajardo ] #244591 - 06/28/2009 02:59 PM
Elaine Boman Webboard User Reg: 06-21-2009 Posts: 20 Loc: Aiken, SC Offline	I'm really curious about the answer to this too. My girl growls in bite training too. She doesn't shake, but she growls loudly. In her case I think it's more a prey response, "It's mine, all mine" LOL. We've only had a couple of lessons, but she was quite loud and the trainer said it wasn't good, but ignored and said it was something to work on later. She had a very good 'grip' and loved she absolutely loved it. I didn't get along with the trainer though... or rather, he didn't like to deal with women and rottweilers.
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Scott Garrett wrote 06/28/2009 05:04 PM Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework... [Re: Elaine Boman ] #244598 - 06/28/2009 05:04 PM
Scott Garrett Webboard User Reg: 03-01-2009 Posts: 645 Loc: NorCal Offline	Off topic. That signature pic is freaking jawsome! http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/7701/neilpatrickharris.jpg
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Aaron Myracle wrote 06/28/2009 05:31 PM Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework... [Re: Scott Garrett ] #244601 - 06/28/2009 05:31 PM
Aaron Myracle Webboard User Reg: 06-06-2008 Posts: 5062 Loc: WA, USA Offline	Ideally, you want a calm dig, that isn't hectic- this is why headshaking is less than ideal. Growling can be a sign of uncertainty, which is why we don't like to see it. It can also become a learned behavior- if the dog growls in uncertainty and wins the tug, it may growl later, not out of uncertainty, but because it believes growling is fruitful behavior. Having the dog carry the prey (even if you have to really run) can fix the shaking and teach the dog to hold calmly. Growling requires a step back in training to determine if it's a nerve issue, a comfort issue, or just a mannerism of the dog's. An experienced helper can identify the cause and work the dog through the issue, whichever it may be.
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Elaine Boman wrote 06/28/2009 06:13 PM Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework... [Re: Aaron Myracle ] #244604 - 06/28/2009 06:13 PM
Elaine Boman Webboard User Reg: 06-21-2009 Posts: 20 Loc: Aiken, SC Offline	William McClure was the one working with Mandy, he has numerous titles and I don't question his skills with the dogs... it's his way to deal with people that made me not train with him. LOL He said it wasn't good that she growled, but said also that her bite work was very good so we should deal with that later. I think this site already has made me start looking into schutz training again. I just need to find a trainer that can deal with an old lady with poor coordination and sometimes a hiccup in timing too, not to mention that I have a rottie not a GSD...
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Ray Fajardo wrote 06/28/2009 06:45 PM Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework... [Re: Aaron Myracle ] #244607 - 06/28/2009 06:45 PM
Ray Fajardo Webboard User Reg: 08-25-2008 Posts: 125 Loc: Offline	Well that clears that up...Thanks I do know that he loves to chase his "egge" toy all over the yard and in frustration (I'm guessing) he would whine and bite and growl and just work himself up (because he could not get a grip on the egge) until finally one day after having scarred (spelling?) and carved tooth grooves in it from attempted bites he actually bit the egge and ran around the yard with it. And now we play fetch with it. Could that have been a cause or an indication of his temperament(the whining and growling part)?
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Howard Knauf wrote 06/29/2009 07:10 AM Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework... [Re: Ray Fajardo ] #244641 - 06/29/2009 07:10 AM
Howard Knauf Webboard User Reg: 09-24-2003 Posts: 1555 Loc: Melbourne, Florida Offline	Growling, whining and head shake on the bite can be caused by numerous things. It can be frustration, defense, weak nerves, desire to fight, uncertainty, fear, genetic, learned behavour, desire to kill prey, or breed/lines specific. As long as I don't see a negative body language that suggests a weak dog, I don't care if the dog does this. If the dog is weak then it shouldn't be working the street. A solid, aggressive sounding working dog when engaged/deployed is just one more level higher up the scale when intimidating bad guys. JMO Howard http://www.spacecoasttactical.com
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Geoff Empey wrote 06/29/2009 09:47 AM Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework... [Re: Howard Knauf ] #244656 - 06/29/2009 09:47 AM
Geoff Empey Webboard User Reg: 02-07-2007 Posts: 596 Loc: Ottawa Ontario, Canada Offline	I'm with Howard. It means many things but without negative body language it is not a sign of a weak dog. The only dog sport that tries to train this out of a dog is SchH/IPO so for aficionados of that sport it is a deal. But to me in Ringsport it makes no difference. My bitch is a thrasher she shakes pushes and pulls and shakes some more. The more pressure that comes from the stick or decoy she just bears down more and says "I'm gonna eat you" she is NOT a weak dog by any means because she does that. She just likes the fight and is very prey motivated.
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