Eric Sacks wrote 07/10/2009 03:23 PM Fish oil amount #246311 - 07/10/2009 03:23 PM
Eric Sacks Webboard User Reg: 06-18-2008 Posts: 230 Loc: Honolulu, Hawaii Offline	I have been feeding my dogs fish oil (1000mg per 10lbs body weight) and vitamin e daily as part of their RAW diet. I was wondering if someone could provide me a reference regarding why to feed this amount. If someone (Connie or Mike perhaps?) could post a link to some clinical studies or research, I would greatly appreciate it. Plus, it would help me convince a skeptic of the importance of fish oil/ e supplementation. http://web.mac.com/spacecadet808/Site/Cleos_Page.html
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Connie Sutherland wrote 07/10/2009 03:25 PM Re: Fish oil amount [Re: Eric Sacks ] #246312 - 07/10/2009 03:25 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	The two items are not necessarily in the same citation (need for long-chain Omega 3s in dogs, and therapeutic amount). Someone doubts the need for Omega 3s? I will definitely hook you up.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 07/10/2009 03:27 PM Re: Fish oil amount [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #246314 - 07/10/2009 03:27 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	The Purdue link is down (and it's an extremely good one) but I'll find more of the same authoritative type. But is the question why dogs need long-chain 3s (as opposed to non-marine sources like flax) or why dogs need Omega 3s at all?
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Eric Sacks wrote 07/10/2009 03:41 PM Re: Fish oil amount [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #246316 - 07/10/2009 03:41 PM
Eric Sacks Webboard User Reg: 06-18-2008 Posts: 230 Loc: Honolulu, Hawaii Offline	Quote: Connie Sutherland Someone doubts the need for Omega 3s? The person doesn't doubt the need/benefit of Omega 3s, just the dosage. He is a physician (human) and is convinced the dosage is excessive. I would like to provide him with some clinical evidence so he can decide how much to feed his dogs. Thank you Connie. http://web.mac.com/spacecadet808/Site/Cleos_Page.html
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Connie Sutherland wrote 07/10/2009 03:44 PM Re: Fish oil amount [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #246317 - 07/10/2009 03:44 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	http://placervillevet.com/Omega_3_fatty_acids.htm http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/omegafattyacids.html http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1659&aid=666 http://www.natural-dog-health-remedies.com/fatty-acids-for-dogs.html If more info is needed, a "search" here using my name and the term Omega and expanded from one week to, say, three years, will yield dozens of threads with citations and detailed explanations, and the person doesn't even have to join the board. Edited by Connie Sutherland (07/10/2009 04:06 PM) Edit reason: delete human-info link
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Connie Sutherland wrote 07/10/2009 03:47 PM Re: Fish oil amount [Re: Eric Sacks ] #246318 - 07/10/2009 03:47 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: Eric Sacks  Quote: Connie Sutherland Someone doubts the need for Omega 3s? The person doesn't doubt the need/benefit of Omega 3s, just the dosage. He is a physician (human) and is convinced the dosage is excessive. I would like to provide him with some clinical evidence so he can decide how much to feed his dogs. Thank you Connie. Covered in three of the links. 5 to 1 (6s to 3s) on a typical big-ag poultry diet would work out to about the 1-gram-per-ten-pound dose. 10 to 1 (older sources) would work out to about a gram per twenty pounds. You will see recommendations of a gram per 20 to 30 pounds, too. I prefer a gram per 10 pounds, based on the 5:1 6-to-3 ratio (and figuring on a poultry-based-RMB diet).
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Connie Sutherland wrote 07/10/2009 03:54 PM Re: Fish oil amount [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #246321 - 07/10/2009 03:54 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	He probably knows, then, that while humans can convert short-chain to DHA and EPA (although not efficiently -- I believe at a rate of 9 to 15%), dogs' conversion rate is about zero. They need the long-chain 3s to come already in that form, making marine sources the best bet for dogs. He would probably be really aghast at my personal beliefs about the desirable 6-to-3 ratio. I think it was probably 2:1 to 1:1 for millennia, based on meat info presented in nutritional anthropology. This is not advice to anyone; this part is strictly my own interpretation of this facet of nutritional anthropology, and it's still controversial.
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Angela Burrell wrote 07/10/2009 03:57 PM Re: Fish oil amount [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #246322 - 07/10/2009 03:57 PM
Angela Burrell Webboard User Reg: 05-10-2006 Posts: 2273 Loc: Ontario, Canada Offline	But I found this in your quoted article. This is something I never knew about; my dogs probably get about 5 grams/day each of salmon oil. From http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/omega-3-000316.htm  Quote: excessive amounts of omega-3 fatty acids may lead to bleeding. In fact, people who eat more than three grams of omega-3 fatty acids per day (equivalent to 3 servings of fish per day) may be at an increased risk for hemorrhagic stroke, a potentially fatal condition in which an artery in the brain leaks or ruptures. and  Quote: Five grams of fish oil contains approximately 0.17 - 0.56 grams (170 -560 mg) of EPA and 0.072 - 0.31 grams (72 - 310 mg) of DHA. So do I add those together (EPA + DHA) to say my dogs are getting a max of 0.870 g/day of omega-3's? Then it says  Quote: The American Heart Association (AHA) recommends an omega-3 fatty acid supplement (as fish oils), 2 - 4 grams daily of EPA and DHA. So humans are to take like 11.5 - 23 g of fish oil daily? Even though that amount can cause bleeding? I'm confused. According to that article, the recommended dose and the dose where harmful effects can be seen are the same? (I could definitely be off in my math!)
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Connie Sutherland wrote 07/10/2009 03:58 PM Re: Fish oil amount [Re: Eric Sacks ] #246323 - 07/10/2009 03:58 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: Eric Sacks  Quote: Connie Sutherland Someone doubts the need for Omega 3s? The person doesn't doubt the need/benefit of Omega 3s, just the dosage. He is a physician (human) and is convinced the dosage is excessive. I would like to provide him with some clinical evidence so he can decide how much to feed his dogs. Thank you Connie. I should add (I often forget to) that these dosages are geared to dogs who are NOT on blood-thinning RXs.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 07/10/2009 04:01 PM Re: Fish oil amount [Re: Angela Burrell ] #246325 - 07/10/2009 04:01 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: Angela Burrell But I found this in your quoted article. This is something I never knew about; my dogs probably get about 5 grams/day each of salmon oil. From http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/omega-3-000316.htm  Quote: excessive amounts of omega-3 fatty acids may lead to bleeding. In fact, people who eat more than three grams of omega-3 fatty acids per day (equivalent to 3 servings of fish per day) may be at an increased risk for hemorrhagic stroke, a potentially fatal condition in which an artery in the brain leaks or ruptures. and  Quote: Five grams of fish oil contains approximately 0.17 - 0.56 grams (170 -560 mg) of EPA and 0.072 - 0.31 grams (72 - 310 mg) of DHA. So do I add those together (EPA + DHA) to say my dogs are getting a max of 0.870 g/day of omega-3's? Then it says  Quote: The American Heart Association (AHA) recommends an omega-3 fatty acid supplement (as fish oils), 2 - 4 grams daily of EPA and DHA. So humans are to take like 11.5 - 23 g of fish oil daily? Even though that amount can cause bleeding? I'm confused. According to that article, the recommended dose and the dose where harmful effects can be seen are the same? (I could definitely be off in my math!) OK, I erred in my link. I meant the U. of Maryland vet school link, and this link doesn't belong in the thread. I haven't read it, don't know anything about it, and didn't mean to post it.
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