This is technically a multiple part question so please bear with me. I am a rottweiler guy at heart but I feel at least part of my questions deal more with working dogs in general than rottweilers specifically.

How is it looked upon when breeders are constantly importing SchH titled dogs and breeding them without personally putting any more working titles on the dogs? I can understand 1 or 2 dogs, but I am seeing kennels who have up to 6 or more dogs who were imported and all titles acquired before they came to America.

I know the chances of getting ripped off when buying or importing a dog sight unseen are very high. But I do know that there are a few breeders and agencies who if they don't have something for you, they will import a dog to fit your needs. I am wondering how to tell that they are looking out for your best interest? I have heard of everything going great until the dog shows up in the crate so this is why I am asking for the steps to take to increase the chances of avoiding this. And more along these lines, does anyone have any recommendations of who to talk to about this?

Well I guess I will just stop here for now as I am unable to at the moment put my last question into a clear point. I hope that what I have said so far has been clear and can get some good responses. If anything needs to be clarified or have questions about what I have or haven't said, please ask.

-Lamarr

The majority of my experience is with sheepdogs and working Jack Russells, but I think my approach to this issue makes general sense. My own preference is to buy puppies or trained dogs from outstanding stock that has been imported by accomplished American breeder/handlers.I look for folks who have a lot of experience with the breed and the sport, and who are on good terms with and well acquainted with foriegn breeder/handlers and dogs.

In the breeds I do have experience with it is very rare for a relative novice to import a trained dog that she can be successful with to the extent that she can justify the cost of the dog. Furthermore, the complexities of trying to breed the dog with little to no access to people who have firsthand knowledge of it's background would be too much of a crapshoot for me.

p.s. I can refer you to such a working GSD breeder/handler but no joy on rotties.
p.p.s. Give me my fleece tug Lamarr!

Edited by Margaret Wheeler (07/27/2009 03:09 PM)
Edit reason: bustin' on Lamarr

 Quote:

How is it looked upon when breeders are constantly importing SchH titled dogs and breeding them without personally putting any more working titles on the dogs?

Ask yourself how much time and patience someone will have with the dog when they know that they're training and feeding (as far as their own breeding purposes are concerned)the living dead.

Especially when we're talking about the intangible, and there are just so many outs and excuses as far as any real or percieved lack of performance.

So, when a breeder imports a title, yes, it'd disturb me if said breeder didn't have some sort of relevant personal experience or handling ability to put the dog through the paces of its alleged training and confirm what the heck is supposed to be there in terms of trained and untrained attributes...and know how to tell the difference.

Like Steve said...some people doing this wouldn't even know the difference. I have heard stories of many dogs who were supposedly SCH titled who people going out to test could not even get to bite a sleeve.

Not saying importing a titled dog is bad; I just did it myself several months ago. It was the dog, bloodlines, structure, and most importantly TEMPERAMENT I wanted...she just happened to come with the title, lol.

Not really a black and white issue, IMHO. Evaluating each breeder individually is your best bet.

Thanks everyone for the responses. I thought this thread was going to go dead as it disappeared of the 24 hour list.

I think everyone has hit the nail on the head. I have seen many rottweiler breeders who have imported dogs and I completely agree that they aren't able to handle the dogs. It is very hard to find breeders though in my case that have everything that I would like. I am very leery of breeders so this would make me even more paranoid.

Jenni, you have hit the nail on the head with importing your own dog. I am looking for all that you've stated you were looking for in you female. The only difference is it is in a rottweiler which in my eyes seems a bit harder to find when you get too specific. Titles aren't what I look for but I wouldn't be against. It is very much a crap shoot, but the way things are, I would much rather get a green or started dog than a puppy but the problem is with really not many pure working line rottweilers anymore, finding one will be very hard to have imported or bought from here in the states.

There is so much to worry about when buying a dog, I can understand why importing a dog is almost impossible. But buying dogs from parents who were titled by someone other than the owner doesn't seem right to me at all. If only it were an easy task.

Now, I have been racking up long distance bills for a while now talking to breeders but I don't want to get ripped off if I were ever to pursue a dog. What do you guys look for in a breeder over seas when it comes to importing a dog? I don't want to get their crap dogs. Jenni, how did you know and verify that your female was a right fit for you? Did you meet her before the final sale or was it blind?

And also, is it better to work through someone else or just going straight to the breeder and leting them know what you are looking for? True working bloodlines are slim so there are only a handful of breeders I feel I want to talk to. And on top of that, I don't feel anyone is creating an all around better rottweiler that has all the traits I like so it is hard to find here in the states. Any help or ideas would be very much so appreciated. And if I am unclear, which I can understand as this is a long post, let me know and I will answer in a better way. Thank you.

-Lamarr

p.s. Margaret: The tug now comes with a Black and Tan Landshark attached as my girl will not let go of it.

 Quote: lamarr couttien

What do you guys look for in a breeder over seas when it comes to importing a dog? I don't want to get their crap dogs.

Ah, but you WILL get their crap if you don't have a very close personal "in." Naturally, they send the worst out of the country. I would never, never, never buy from a breeder out of the country. What do you do when you have a health problem? Send the dog back for a replacement? They count on the fact that it's not worth the shipping.

 Quote:

Jenni, how did you know and verify that your female was a right fit for you? Did you meet her before the final sale or was it blind?

A good friend of mine who has forgotten more about these dogs than I will probably ever be able to learn sent friends of his (for over 30 years) to find her for me. Told them what I was looking for and several months later, they found her. I wasn't at all worried about it, as he knows what I like, and they know what he likes and would never send him crap. You absolutely have to have that personal "in" or I would never ever spend that kind of money on a dog from overseas. The people in Germany don't deal w/Americans except for Steve (friend who got her for me); they are not brokers looking to dump a bunch of dogs per month. I told them what temperament I wanted (said nothing of color, age, etc.) and it took them months to find her. That's part of how I knew she was a good one. Breeders and vendors would have had ten dogs on hand who were just "perfect" for me.

She's better than I even anticipated. The day she was shown for her Koer report there were people offering a lot more than I paid for her but no way would I sell her.


I would never attempt this on my own. It costs money, but I feel I got my money's worth as opposed to the people who try to save some money by going directly to an overseas breeder and end up losing all of it or just getting a crappy dog.

To me the place to start is with an American who is well known to succussfully breed and train working Rottweillers. You know that working lines are hard to find anywhere, so finding the real thing in the states might not be easy in and of itself.If you can't do this on your own you might get help from ond of the accomplished Schutzhund trainer/handlers who compete world-wide. Tell him what you are looking for. He might be able to refer you to someone. I can't emphasize enough the value of advice from an experienced handler/breeder/trainer who cares only about the work,and by that I mean a person who sees winning in competition as just a natural outcome of breeding a good working dog rather than breeding a working dog as a means to winning a competition.

If you can find an awesome American working Rottweiler person, then he might very well be interested in helping you import a dog that can contribute to his own bloodlines and so will work very hard to help you find something good.

Bottom line: at least in sheepdogs, it's a very dicey business for anyone, regardless of experience or success to wrestle a good trained dog from those wiley Scotsmen, and I suspect its the same with good working dogs the world over. Don't go alone or unarmed!

Another thought is that the person you send or trust to find you a dog does not necessarily have to be a Rott person, but a working dog person.

I know a guy that goes to Belgium and Austria to buy dogs for many PDs. He looks mostly at the BM, DS, and GSDs, but knows a good dog when he sees it. He actually went to Guy's place to check out Ushi and Uran for me. The pups were too young for any type of test...

Point is that a good working dog person knows a good dog regardless of breed. So don't limit yourself to a Rott person only.

You all have raised very valid points that I never quite thought about. Every American breeder seems to have dogs on hand that they feel will "fit for me" but in reality it is what will help them the most. The problem is the dogs they are interested in aren't dogs I'd be interested in.

Jessica, I believe you have just opened up a new avenue here. I never thought about asking people outside of our rottweilers in order to import a dog. Good trainers and breeders do know a good working dog when they see it no matter what the breed and I can't believe I forgot that. I do know of two trainers who sell their own and import dogs for Police departments. One who actually used to breed and work rottweilers on the national and international level. I bet he could at least point me in the right direction.

Margaret, you put a line there with which I truly stand by and something that should always be kept in mind. " a person who sees winning in competition as just a natural outcome of breeding a good working dog rather than breeding a working dog as a means to winning a competition." It is hard to find people like this these days and I will make sure to keep this in mind as well.

Jenni, it sounds like you got a great dog and I only wish to be that lucky. You have given me hope that it is possibly to come out with a winning hand when you play your cards right. I guess I will have to do a little bit of everything in order to make sure I succeed at finding that dog who has everything and more of what I am looking for.

 Quote: Lamarr Couttien

Jenni, it sounds like you got a great dog and I only wish to be that lucky. You have given me hope that it is possibly to come out with a winning hand when you play your cards right. I guess I will have to do a little bit of everything in order to make sure I succeed at finding that dog who has everything and more of what I am looking for.

Thanks. Keep in mind this was the result of many years of research and talking with people to find someone I trusted enough to embark on this. This was not a 6month-1 year endeavor...more like 7-8 years of dreaming, reading, searching, and planning. It paid off in the end though, and you can do the same, I'm sure, if you are careful and diligent. Just don't rush!

Like Jessica said...I don't see breed being the all-important thing here. The big thing is trust and knowledge.