I've read in several places and even in the AKC breed standard that Australian Shepherds are supposed to be "reserved with strangers" and "protective". This might be related to the recent thread on "Too Friendly".

I know all dogs in a breed are individuals and none fit perfectly the breed standard. What's more, I "rescued" Suzzie and never saw her parents and have no idea about her lineage. Further, I realize that Suzzie is still a puppy at six months old and puppies are different than adults.

However, in no way is Suzzie "reserved with strangers"; quite the opposite. I don't see any hints of protectiveness in her either. She welcomes strangers into our home and yard like long lost friends. Maybe this is good socialization. Frankly though, I'd much prefer her to be reserved with strangers. I'd rather her be completely neutral to people who walk up on the street or who knock on our door. I guess this is a training issue, though I don't know how to train this type of behavior.

Also, since I have no family history on Suzzie I've always had a hankering doubt that she's really full-blood Australian Sheherd. She mostly looks like one, but I've yet to see another Aussie that really looks like her. She's a bi-color black and white. Almost every other Aussie I've seen is tri-color or merle. Suzzie's head is almost completely black. Every other Aussie I've seen has some kind of white stripe that divides their face. Behaviorally, I haven't seen anything that would say "herding instinct" to me; though I don't necessarily know what those instincts would look like. She loves to run and chase the kids; but what dog doesn't? She's not overly concerned about grouping the kids. Much of the time she'll sit in the shade as the kids run all over the yard doing kid stuff and she's pretty content to watch. Finally, her drive isn't like what I've seen in other Aussies or read about the breed. She'll do OB training, but fairly quickly tires of it. She doesn't really retrieve and gets bored with my trying to train it. She just doesn't seem to have that "type-a" personality to work hard and fast.

Of course, she does have pretty high energy levels and gets verbally and visually frustrated if she feels she's not getting enough exercise. She's not a border collie, but I've heard said you can't out exercise a border collie without also giving them a real job. What you end up with is a very, very fit border collie that still doesn't have a job and is still bored. Suzzie isn't anything like that.

If she's a mix, I have no idea what she's mixed with. Her looks just don't deviate that much from the standard; just enough to niggle at me. It's really her personality that doesn't seem to match what I've read.

I'm not sure what I'm asking. On the one hand, I'd really like her to be more reserved with strangers and I'm not sure how to do that. On the other I guess I'm asking about what to expect from an individual who doesn't really fit the mold.

Have you read the "Who Pets My Puppy" article?

As far as herding goes, she is not too young to participate in a Herding Instinct/Capability Test.

Yes, I've read "Who Pets My Puppy" (more than a few times). We didn't follow Ed's advice and now here we are. I guess maybe an "I told you so" is deserved. I am clearly Suzzie's trainer. I walk her nearly every day. Every once and a while my schedule won't allow and my son or my wife will walk her. I've taught her to walk on a leash. I've done all the marker training with her. Most of the time Suzzie is right next to me on a leash (or in her crate).

The problem is in the exceptions of course. We decided to let our kids pet, play, and love on Suzzie. In no way are we trying to teach Suzzie that her rank is below the kids. We've just been teaching Suzzie not to jump up on or chew on the kids. Other than that, Suzzie has no expectation of OB training from the kids. She doesn't respond to commands from them. My wife also pets and loves on Suzzie at least once a day, maybe more. Suzzie shows a lot of respect for my wife and knows what type of good behavior my wife expects.

So I let Suzzie play in the back yard with the kids. And then the kids have friends that come over and Suzzie plays with them too. So in addition to our four kids, there are probably five or six other kids who regularly visit the house and play with Suzzie if it's one of the times when Suzzie is out playing with my kids.

And there are a couple neighbor friends that I see regularly as I walk Suzzie and I've let them pet her. I don't usually stop and let "random" people pet her; but there are a few people I do stop and talk with and she gets some attention.

So clearly after I stop to look at it, this receptiveness to strangers is my own doing. What I'm looking for though is "reserved with strangers" and not "reserved with everyone but me". Ed's article on "who pets my puppy" takes an all or nothing approach even calling out for family members not to pet his dog. That seems an extreme that isn't livable in our house with mostly young kids. It also doesn't seem to fit with the heritage of Aussies as farm dogs. Seems like you'd expect a farm dog to be friendly with members of the family/pack but "reserved with strangers" who aren't. I guess maybe 50 - 75 years ago a farm dog lived in mostly isolation with his family instead of how tightly packed we are in suburbia.

A couple of thoughts. You still have a puppy, it is quite possible that she will become more reserved/focused on you as she matures. If you have kids with friends over, her behavior isn't a bad thing, IMO. At this stage in the game, I'd rather have a friendly pup then a reserved one. You can train a dog to focus on you as it matures. And I've noticed with my younger Border Collie, the more he matures (4 y/o now, it's been a process!) the more he becomes "my" dog. He is more interested in where I am, what I'm doing and just hanging out with me. When he was younger he was more likely to check in, then try and go do his own thing.

As far as herding instinct goes, sometimes it doesn't come out 'til a dog is older. Herding instinct tests don't tell you alot - most dogs with semi-reasonable prey drive can pass those. And sometimes even in well bred dogs true herding instinct/ability doesn't come out until the dog is 8-14 months old. My 4 y/o BC shows zero prey drive around kids - he ia a goof and wants to play ball. But he is a totally serious worker whe it comes to sheep - tail down, crouching, good balance, really wants to work.

Aussie can come in a wide range of colors. Merles and tri colored dogs are common but there are solid colored and bi-colored ones, too.

Mara, thanks for the comments. I totally agree about the kids. I'm glad Suzzie does so well with them and generally speaking adding new kids to the mix isn't a problem at all. She's mostly learned not to jump. That's a much better situation than having a dog that doesn't want to be around kids and having lots of kids around.

A lot of this is just my own uncertainty and inexperience. I've never really owned a working dog and definitely never a herding dog. I don't have any measure to know where I am in the process or what to expect next.

I'm not sure I'm going to actually use her for herding (though I do fantasize about pitching this computer in the trash and starting a meat goat ranch from time to time). Right now I think I'd be happy to work on stronger OB with faster compliance for sit, down, come and a good stay. If I could get a good down away and fetch this by this winter that'd be ideal. She'll turn one end of January. With those kinds of basics down we'd have options to try other things next Spring.

On this note, I have Ed's DVD on "Power of Positive Training with Markers". I know he has the Basic Obedience, his older DVD on "Building Drive and Focus" and now this new DVD with Michael Ellis. I wish I could just get all three, but can't afford it. Anyone have any recommendations where to go next? I'm using Pat Miller's book on marker training to learn how to teach basic obedience. Seems like Ed's OB DVD would be good to get me caught up on the specific techniques on teaching specific things that I'm missing. On the other hand, as I mentioned above I'm struggling a bit with getting Suzzie into drive and maybe one of the other DVDs would be better. If you could only get one DVD for a newbie like me which would it be?

Doug, there are bi colored Aussies; both black & white and red & white. I almost bought a black bi puppy. There is even the occasional solid colored red or black dog. In fact one of the top ASCA dogs (WTCH Slash V Han Solo: http://www.lz-westerntraining.de/soloe.htm ) is a solid red dog. They are more common amongst the working type Aussies than the conformation Aussies which, as you've noted, tend to be tricolor or merle.

You're also right - not being reserved with strangers can be something of your own doing but it can also just be your dog. There are many Aussies who are reserved with strangers but also many who aren't. I know a breeder who doesn't have a single dog who has issues with strangers. That doesn't mean they're not purebred Australian Shepherds.

She could also be a low drive dog. Or, she could find OB boring. I know Keiko tires of marker training sessions (unless I'm using her raw dinner or hose as a reward...any other reward simply hasn't been great enough) as well. I have to break the commands up with very exciting play and sometimes even a little walk down the block to keep her interest.

I was just talking with another forum member about how it seems that Aussies may express drive differently than some of the more popular breeds on this forum. I am a novice and may be incorrect in that statement. This is also my first Aussie so I'm still learning. However, think about it this way for a moment: Aussies (specifically working Aussies) are bred to herd. Their reward is herding the cattle or sheep or ducks. They're not working for a treat and they're not working for a toy. They were also bred to have an "off" switch. That means that they should be able to settle down and be a suitable house dog when they're not out working the animals with you. This means that even the highest drive Aussie should be able to settle down and behave the way you mentioned Suzzie behaves (lying beneath the tree while the kids play). To have a dog that was ALWAYS working would be something like a personality fault in the Aussie.

I think if you can wait til she's a bit older and get her instinct tested or take a herding class, you may see a different side of Suzzie once she gets in a pen with sheep. That being said, she may do nothing in the test. But I would wait until you got her out around some stock and assessed her natural ability to think of her as a low drive dog.

I know I've said enough but I wanted to mention - even in the agility class I frequent (I go to chat and watch, and will be taking Keiko when she's old enough) you can see a difference between the behavior of the "conformation type" Aussies and the working type Aussies.

 Quote: doug alcorn

If I could get a good down away and fetch this by this winter that'd be ideal.

Have you tried playing fetch with two similar items? Is she a ball dog? If so, use two balls. I used squeaky ones to start with because they helped get her attention. I kept Keiko on a longline, then squeaked and got her very excited with one of the balls. I tossed it just a few feet away from me and encouraged her to come in my direction by calling her, and kind of scooting backwards. If she gets the ball but doesn't want to come your direction, you can direct her gently with the longline. You don't have to be picky about her being right at your feet or anything...you just want her coming in your direction and stopping fairly close. Then once she was close, I produced the second ball and made a show with it - squeaking, asking "you want it?!" etc until she dropped the first one. As SOON as she dropped the first one, I tossed the second one a few feet in the opposite direction. Then repeat. I could only do it like three times in the beginning but now I can play this game as long as I like. Granted, Keiko doesn't have a wonderful retrieve yet but it's improving. I now play this game with two pieces of water hose which she loves!

 Quote: doug alcorn

On the other hand, as I mentioned above I'm struggling a bit with getting Suzzie into drive ...

I struggled with getting Keiko into drive a bit too. I have figured out how to get her going though, and can try to get a video of what I do if you'd like? It's hard to explain what I do but I did kind of adapt some things from what Bernhard Flinks does in the Building Drive & Focus DVD. I also use the hose to get her going because thus far, playing with the hoses gets her into the highest drive.

Edited by Jasmine Dillon (08/05/2009 11:51 AM)
Edit reason: Fixed quote

 Quote: Jasmine Dillon

I also use the hose to get her going because thus far, playing with the hoses gets her into the highest drive.

I think that's really good point, Jasmine...(use the toy that gets the most reaction from your pup)

For a time I used small plastic water bottles (squeezed them to make that crunchy noise that they make) to get my dog's attention.

I also found that at just about 6 months, my dog had a big surge in prey drive...at that point she was much more interested in balls, but prior to that they didn't float her boat, so to speak...



Keep at it, Doug!

 Quote: Doug Alcorn

and now this new DVD with Michael Ellis.

This one is coming to me today. I'll pm you after I watch it; I'm betting that it's going to be very good...

To get a taste of Michael Ellis, watch the streaming videos that Ed has posted, if you haven't already...

ACDs are supposed to be reserved with strangers and have a suspicious glint to their eyes. I have several that meets this description and I have had a few that do not. Frost is one of those that I say was not in line when they were handing out the suspicious glint and reserved behavior with strangers ;-)

Personally, while I would rather her have those breed traits, I don't loose sleep over the fact that she has no problem crawling onto the lap of a wheelchair bound person to give affection. She is plenty suspicious when it comes to bitework. Like Jasmine said, some dogs are reserved and some dogs aren't. Doesn't make them any less of the breed that they are.

I apologize if I missed it but did you say you got Suzzie from a shelter? Was she a stray or an owner turn in? Another possiblility is the English Shepherd:

http://www.englishshepherd.org/appearance.htm

They generally have tails on them and I don't know if your girl is docked or not. Granted ACDs are supposed to have tails but that does not stop idiots from docking them as well.