Training is going very well on the 5/6 month old GSD. Based on the video, and the dog, I have begun to relearn everything I thought I knew. I am encountering so many wonderful things I have never run into with breeds I am used to. I do have one concern... I do not know how to read this as good or bad... being so unfamiliar with GSD natures.
When Brock does not like somthing... he will bark at me. From his thinking he has been into a stay too long, to me ending training/working time.(He loves working for me) He will not "shush" and what I wind up doing is moving to another room... ignoring him til he stops... then I crate him and I go outside (so it does not seem like a punishment) I know this is evading his behavior rather than correcting it... but I have absolutely no idea what to do. I have never ever had a dog tell me off. He will drag out every toy he has and try to make me play once he realizes the ball is put away... barking and pacing as well. His training is always OB in afternoon... and we work his prey drive after dinner, the second half is is when I work on getting 100% out of his staying on sit and down, til I release. I am very careful not to overpraise and ruin his concentration. I am expecting too much too fast? Should we just be playing plain old fetch just yet?

Michelle,

What you are doing is in fact correcting the behavior, it isn't using punishment. It is using extinction, which takes longer but is more effective reducing a behavior you do not want. So I wouldn't worry about it.

Michelle, IF I am following your reaction correctly, you wait until he stops barking on his own while you ignore him, and then after he stops barking at you, you put him in a crate and you go outside? If that's the sequence, then you are in fact punishing him; however, you are punishing him for becoming quiet! If you put him in the crate AFTER he stops barking, you are providing an unpleasant consequence for his behavior of silence. Put him in his crate and leave him as a consequence for his barking if you want to; as soon as he is quiet for, say two minutes, let him out.

Lee is correct timing is everything, in this type of dicipline exercise. I think (IMO I'm not a Pro) 5/6 months he is old enough for a more immediate correction. Where timing is less of a factor, have him on leash/choke chain and when he starts a quick pop attention getter and a firm "No". When he stops barking, "Praise" command the sit "Praise" and out pops the ball. While still in the sit "Praise", throw the ball then release the puppy to Fetch/play. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Correct, distract,praise and reward, its one of the techniques learned on this board. It is a lot harder for a rookie to mess up. Even though it seems to be more to it. The results are faster and two fold, you are also asserting your role as strong leader.

You want to be seen as Alpha, it will be needed to control a strong willed puppy and eventual dog, like he appears to be. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You gonna have your hands full, but its something wonderful to see this powerful free spirited animal, kinda like watching a horse rearing up. Its kinda touching.

Have fun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Your way will work, with the moderfications Lee Suggested. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by Don B. Ackerson:
...when he starts, a quick pop attention getter and a firm "No". )

You've got this sequence backwards, Don. If you are going to advocate punishment (which I wouldn't for this "problem", which isn't really a problem anyway), the goal should be to condition the dog so that he chooses to refrain from the undesired behavior because it has unpleasant consequences. At the very least, your "no" should PRECEDE the physical correction, so that the dog ALWAYS has the opportunity to avoid the pain by ceasing the undesired behavior (the barking). If you said NO and the dog stopped, you would NOT give the physical correction - that way the dog learns that he can control the situation and avoid the pain by changing his behavior. The instant he was silent, praise/reward. Timing is still everything - if you are late with your "no" when he barks, he's going to associate it with some other behavior that he is doing at the moment you said it, like pawing you or spinning or sitting or whatever he happened to be doing at that instant. You're trying to get him to recognize that there is just one little piece of his total behavior at that moment that you don't like, so you have to have good timing to help him understand what it is you don't want.

I was sorta basing this timing/correction on the fact that he seems to bark continuously. So I envision just to state "No" would go be understood.

But to Pop and almost stimulataneous say "NO" would work better. I mean if he is barking and you say "No" he doesn't know that you really think anythings wrong (especially since this has been going on for a while), unless he has been taught that command. So how would you get his attention just by saying "No"? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
I'd think he would just bark loudier.

Like I said I'm not a Pro, but the timing is right there really not much time lost. I would think after the pop the leash, you would shorten the leash (I did mention that my sceniro was a leashed situation) to stop the jumping and circling to get his attention on the situation at hand.

I agree that timing is always improtant.

So I envision just to state "No" would **go** be understood.

Correction - So I envision just to say, "No" the dog would not understand.

You are correct that the dog probably would NOT understand the first "no". That's expected. But this is about the proper way to utilize avoidance conditioning (compulsion). ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS the command (or conditioned stimulus) PRECEDES the physical correction (the aversive stimulus). Why? Becuz the goal is to associate the "NO" with the pain of the correction, so that after several repetitions, the dog will stop his behavior on the word "NO" without requiring the leash correction. If he builds the association that "NO" brings unpleasantness/pain, you can then just simply say "NO" and his behavior is inhibited, he stops. If you do it your way, the leash correction first and "NO" after or simultaneous with the correction,the dog will not learn that association. This is called backwards conditioning and it is, for all intents and purposes of our discussion, totally ineffective. The dog WILL learn to stop barking, cuz barking = pain. But he will NOT learn to stop on your word "NO" (or "quiet" or whatever word you use), and you want that association because you can use it in a thousand situations in his lifetime and it will inhibit his behavior at that moment, not just barking. In other words, "NO" becomes a conditioned punisher, with widespread uses. Your way, the dog only will stop barking under those specific conditions which you have punished.

I don’t think I would praise the dog for being quite after a correction for barking. Training abstention behavior is different than training active behaviors.

I'd have to disagree with that. "Not responding" is as much of a response and a choice by the dog as active responses. Just as "NO" is the danger signal for the dog that pain will follow if he doesn't change his behavior, the praise is the safety signal that lets the dog know that he successfully avoided the pain. The feedback is black and white. The only time people have trouble with praise/reward in this scenario is if the dog has a low threshold for stimulation and gets excited by the praise/reward and becomes stimulated to bark again.