I have two Malinois and live next to a forest where we have tons of deer. My female doesn’t chase game but but is always up to a nice chase with her male. My male is not the real chaser but he loves to bolt when he hears/sees distraction in the forest. When he bolts my female bolts too just for the fun of a good race. They have a good but not bullet proof recall and return to me within seconds in the worst case a couple of minutes.

I am currently working on a whistle recall and over time will increase more distractions. Still the training settings - similar to ring sport - is not the same when face with bolting deer. Also this is done without an e-collar.

I would love to follow Roni's principles from what I've gathered from Ed’s board:
>>I teach an "off" command, similar to a "leave it" in application. I teach off in the very first appointment along with come, and wait. Ninety seven percent of the dogs I work with have a tail wagging attitude! The other three percent are wagging their tails by the next appointment.
Calling your dog off of "critters" is basically one of dealing with distractions; therefore there must be a level of competentacy. I am very fair with the dog, setting up the situations where I believe he will succeed. He must wear a leash at first, followed by a long line. Once the dog has had a period of exhibiting understanding of the word, then I increase the distraction level. Side note: The level that I use on the collar is changing all the time based upon the dog's drive level and his ability to respond.
I use the e-collar in a very different way than most trainers, in that I use the stim with marker training, and whatever else I can to accelerate the learning with the dog, all without compromising my principles. Attitude is everything with me, so I tailor the training based upon genetic make up, environmental sensitivity, previous training and drives.
I want my dog to leave cats, skunks, deer, cars, horses. When I have reached "a" level of training, I can say off and my dog will totally ignore the distraction. My personal dog has crazy drive and I have dealt with drives for a number of years. This works, IF you put the time in and are consistent. I raise and lower the stim depending on how the dog is responding or not responding. Some people use the recall to get their dog's attention and therefore ignore "critters". <<

It would be nice to get some more details and clarifications how to proceed. I don't know of a trainer in my area who could help me. Most folks here seem to "solve" crittering with a very high stim. That's not the route I wish to got.

Thanks for every help!

This is as good as a dog who raids refrigerators. The mission itself is the reward therefore they will do it any chance they get.

You need to either make chasing deer impossible by repelling deer from your property or making it impossible for your dog to enter areas where deer travel, make it a very unhappy moment for your dog to ignore your recall, get the dog to the point where they will down instead of give chase, or come up with something that your dog likes more than chasing deer.

The usual way rabbit hunters get their beagles off deer (the term for it is trashbreaking) is through high stim, my grandfather used other less forgiving methods on his hounds. It's a tried and true method but I agree doesn't mix well with modern training styles. I think the same thing is true of the forced retrieve or teaching the ordered retrieve from boats. It doesn't mean the method doesn't work.

Melisse I believe there is a difference in raiding fridges (or in my case stealing cat food) and chasing game. You are adressing two different drives (yes I know the word is outdated). "Plain" obedience isn't cutting it with my dogs when it comes to crittering. Sometimes it does but what I am looking to work on is what I quoted above from Roni.
I am aware of using high stim and that's not the way I wish to go. It can go terribly wrong and before that happens I keep my dogs on a leash when I am walking in "deer county".
But thanks for your help.

I mean it's a self rewarding behavior in both cases. Therefore the dog will do it any chance it gets.

It is about obedience. Your dog is not listening to commands under a moment of high distraction. The question in my mind is what are YOU willing to do to correct it? There is no magic wand to correcting the issue.

There are a few options:

You can do nothing,your dog will continue to chase deer

You can do nothing to address the behavior, keep your dog on a leash so they can't engage the chase.

You can attempt to address the behavior through obedience and shaping at a lower level of distraction then ramp up the distraction levels. Personally I like getting the down on command to the point where the dog will do it under high distraction. You can also start with the obedience and begin to work the behavior into something use able like in herding.

or you can try to make the behavior non rewarding which is the old school method. It doesn't work with all dogs but it does work on a fair number.

Rachel, you can PM Roni and ask her to explain her statement to you. She's a moderator on this board, an e-collar expert, and I'm sure she'd be willing to help.

This old thread of mine may help...

Recall off wildlife

I worked the long-line on hikes with varying degrees of distraction. It made a much more reliable recall, BUT there is still an occasional pursuit sequence that it fails and I rely on the e-collar stim to break it.

Katie

Katie, thanks for the link!

Angela, I am hoping that Roni is helping me here on the board. Chances are other folks have the same or similar issues so we don't have to bother her all the time. Bummer she is so far away I would book training sessions with her.

Melissa, please read the article below why it's not always about obedience:
http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/behaviour-training/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing.html
Of course dogs that chase are internally reinforced through just performing the behavior. You can compare chasing with a drug addict. Now you tell a drug addict to be obedient and stop taking drugs right now.
As I said in my first post my dogs return. It's not bullet proof because sometimes they need a second whistle to return. I worked that far already.

BTW Roni (I love her ;-) got in touch with me. I have a Dogtra 1700NCP (have never used yet and if necessary will get another one). And I do marker training. High praise for the Michael Ellis marker training DVD from Ed!!!

Rachel,
I have been convinced for a long time that it's not a matter of ob when a dog goes into high drive because of something like game (food). I believe it's; they just don't hear you. They lose their head so to speak. That's why it takes a large stim to knock them out of it, they just don't feel the working level page or stim of everyday use. Once one has their attention again they mind perfectly well. The hard part is teaching them to hear you no matter what they're thinking or not thinking as the case may be.
I have a GSD as you've described. The point I am in her training is 'if' I get a word in before she shifts gears (so to speak) the call off is very good. However if I miss that opportunity through inattention on my part she would be in the next county before I'd ever see her again except for the e-collar. The high stim does nothing more then knock her out of the 'zone' so she can once again focus on me. I hate using in that way but it's either that or a gone dog.
She's getting better, a couple of times now I've called her off in full drive without having to resort to the e-collar.........She still wears it when out and about.

I will never be anywhere remotely as fun as killing that cat, deer, skunk, squirral, racoon, rabbit, ground hog, turkey, whatever. I don't care why she minds me on that.....As long as she minds, just as would I expect her to when called off the decoy.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy