Hi fellow K9 lovers

I have a bit of a problem with my 2 dogs. A 3 year male GSD and a 2 year male GSD/Groenendael cross. My GSD is busy with
personal protection training and he is doing very well. He is starting to work into defense drive and is feeling more comfortable working
away from me though he is still always on lead. My Belgian/GSD mix is a powerhouse of
preydrive but lack a bit confidence but I will still
build his confidence.
So in a nutshell, I think my dogs in particular my GSD will defend me in a personal protection situation.
Since I live in Johannesburg which is plagued
by violent crime having trained protection dogs is an assett in a security system.
Now for the problem:
a Year and a half there was a burglary on my property and I suspect that the dogs were traumatised by the burglars for they act very
strange when people approach them on the
property. They will bark furiously at strangers
at the gate but as soon as the stranger enters
the property they will turn and run away scared. Now I must note that all of this happens in my absence for when I am there
they appear much more confident and relaxed
around strangers. I know that property protection and personal protection is two very
different ballgames but is there a way to
"reprogram" the dogs to be confident on their
own to watch over my property when Im gone.
I do not want to create vicious dogs that kill
anyone that enters unauthorised but at least
corner a would be criminal and alert the neighbours. My GSD wont attack a stationary
agitator anyway from his personal protection
training lessons. Any help greatly appreciated.

I think you need to come to the reality that most likely if the dog runs when people enter the property, the dog will most likely run when you are threatened for real. I don't think personal protection and protecting a territory are too seperate things.

A dog that fails that test of temperament, isn't the dog I would choose for protection.

How a dog reacts to threats while alone is very telling of his temperament.

Given, dogs will show more confidence while you are there and that may be the thing that tips the dog to fight rather than flight, but I wouldn't want to bet on it. Dogs that are on the edge of survival behaviors, in my opinion, don't make good protection dogs.

Rob I agree with you that dogs with incorrect temperaments/nerves are not reliable protectors but I then one must look at why
they behave certain ways. My dogs have very
sound temperaments, it is just in certain circumstances that they go into flight mode.
You must remember that my GSD was just over 17 months when we were burglared and the Belgian was a puppy. Non of them have at time had any exposure and training in manwork so it was a unnerving experience for
two young dogs to be confronted with the real thing.
a Similiar thing happened to my Brother's Dobie bitch. She is from top European working lines and a real meanie with lots of drive. After a burglary at their house she withdrew completely from confrontations but gradually they have brought her out of her shell and now she attacks the helper with real aggression.
My theory is that dogs like Dobies,Belgians and GSD's are highly inteligent and sensitive
and one bad experience in their youth can alter their behaviour significantly.

There is a definite distinction between property and personal protection. a Property protection dog has to have a high
dominance drive and territorial instinct where as these traits are not vital in personal protection, IPO or shutzhund. I can go into deeper detail here but that we can leave for
another discussion.

If the dog was that badly traumatized by the experience then I doubt you will ever get them back. Once the flight pattern is set, it will take around 5x longer to break the pattern. So you are looking at it taking longer than the life expectancy of the dogs. The other thing that I am looking at is that in the GSD and the mix both should have been mature enough to handle defense work at the time. I wouldn't have expected them to be able do the work untrained, but they should not be experiencing the level of trauma they are.

You will probably get the dogs to look good in training with a helper they know, but throw them up against a helper they don't know in an unfamiliar situation and they are going to go back to flight. Training and the real thing can be much different. The other cue in the behavior you describe is that they require the additional confidence of having support from a handler to stand their ground.

From what you are describing they are already barking at strangers if you aren't home and I think that is going to be the best you will get from these dogs.

As an example of the difference in temperament... when my BRT pup was just over a year old we were planning to go out of town. We have a person that comes and stays at the house when we are out of town. So we were introducing him to the new dog. We spent several days getting the dog used to him coming the house w/o us letting him in. It went fine. So we went for the acid test and had him try and come in when we weren't home. She met him at the front door and nailed him in the upper thigh. This in a slow maturing breed, and she was untrained at the time. He lived with us for a few months and now they are fine. Afriend of mine had people break in to her house. Her 1 1/2 y/o untrained dog was hitting the door so hard the burgulars piled furniture in front of the door to the room they boke in to to keep him out, and then bolted back out the window.

David wrote: "There is a definite distinction between property and personal protection. a Property protection dog has to have a high
dominance drive and territorial instinct where as these traits are not vital in personal protection, IPO or shutzhund."

I disagree with your statement and I think it is relevent to this discussion. The dog that has the confidence to protect it's territory alone is the dog that will have the confidence to protect it's handler in a real situation. It is a matter of confidence and dogs that show avoidance without the support of their handlers are lacking in the confidence needed to fight it out to protect their handlers. There may be a very small grey area, but that has not been my experience.

To give a good showing in Schutzhund, IPO, or even some forms of "protection training" doesn't require the confidence or courage that fighting in a real conflict would. In a sport atmosphere or in a controlled protection atmosphere the lack of confidence can be worked through to a certain extent.

The most telling selection test of working dogs, either police, protection, or sport IMO is the tie out test. Where the dog is agitated and threatened while alone by a stranger. The dog's reactions will be the same basic reactions he will have when put into a situation where he will have to protect for real. . .handler present or no.

In my opinion protection dogs and sport dogs DO need those qualities to really work, no matter what discipline they are being trained in.

There isn't anything wrong with having a protection dog that doesn't bite, as long as you know it doesn't bite. Barking aggresively and showing off is usually enough. I agree with Richard, that may be the best you will get out of them.

Sorry, those are my gut feelings bro.

Alan Carlson quoted Van Camp: “The most telling selection test of working dogs, either police, protection, or sport IMO is the tie out test. Where the dog is agitated and threatened while alone by a stranger. The dog's reactions will be the same basic reactions he will have when put into a situation where he will have to protect for real. . .handler present or no.”

Alan Carlson wrote: I totally disagree with this statement. To test a dog for fight or flight on a tie-out may be fear based. However, testing a dog in the dark, on a loose line, more accurately reflects the true temperament of a dog. It is not the dogs REACTIONS that make the difference; it is the ACTIVE instincts that make the difference. I don’t want a dog that HAS to protect for real, I like the dog that WANTS to protect.

LC: For about 15 years I've been using a stake out test to select dogs for police service and personal protection. I've never had the slightest bit of difference in distinguishing between the three primary combat drives, fight, defense or prey during those tests.

If you want to see it go to

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/castle1.htm

Lou, I've use the stake-out test for 20 years, but then I like to test what the real dog will do when the three major drives are stimulated. That occurs on a loose-line or off-line in the dark.

Alan wrote: "To test a dog for fight or flight on a tie-out may be fear based."

When I say tie out, I'm not talking about a three foot leash or anything. I'm talking a 20'+ line. . .loose. . .always done in places that the dog has never been. . .with the approach of the stranger a fair distance away. I also think that the important part of the test is to see how the dog reacts without the extra support of the handler.

I think it is possible to see the difference between the dog that is defensive, working at the edge of it's survival behaviors, and the dog that is confident and WANTS to mix it up with the aggressor.

I see your point, but I think that there are signs that are present before the dog drops into survival instincts (fight or flight).

All the signs of avoidance, I think you can see those signs before you push a dog into a fight or flight response. If those things start happening and the dog slips into defense, you know, and then you stop.

I am curious though, how do you test the dog on a "loose-line"? Does the handler hold the line and follow the dog around? Doesn't the added bonus of the handler being present scew the test by the added support of the handler there? I want a dog that can work independantly without that support. I think it is an important trait, a telling trait.

Off lead I get, but that seems problematic to me, unless you do either of two things. . .put the agitator in a suit (then the dog will load up cuz he knows that game), or put the dog in a muzzle.

I do that after I do a tie out.

Is there a better way that I'm missing?

Just for sheetz and giggles this is the selection test that I do, from a few different sources.

Tie out test, just like Lou's Stake Out test, but with this one difference.

After the dog has made it past the tie out test, and I only continue with dogs that are not freaking out or in survival behaviors, defensive reactions, fight or flight. . .

The agitator confronts the dog in a breif conflict, then he takes off giving a little attitude as he goes.

The handler then quickly returns to the dog, and either puts him in muzzle or takes the line from the stake or fence. The dog I want shows immediately that he wants to take off after the bad guy that just finished agitating him, he actively starts seeking him out off lead or on the long line. The agitator runs into a wood, a building, around the back of a house, into a parking lot of cars, etc, to hide. The dog should be hot to find him and mix it up again.

After that you kinda play it by ear depending on the dogs training and what happens. You facilitate the dog finding the agitator again, if he doesn't do it on his own, and see if he will immediately engage in muzzle or hit the end of the line trying to get him. Then the agitator is chased off for good.

Throughout that whole ordeal, I think you see a lot of what the dog is made of.

I also like to do muzzle tests in unfamiliar buildings and environments, but that is after the fact.

Hi David
"So in a nutshell, I think my dogs in particular my GSD will defend me in a personal protection situation".

I do not think this is a safe assumption, you need proof, to see if the dog will attack, I would suggest getting an agitator from your school seeing that you are in training to come past your house one evening.

Have one dog at a time, if possible get the agitator to jump into the property; I think this will ultimately answer your question

From South Africa

Reinier Geel