So we took Conan, our Corgi for his herding instinct test and first lesson and it went very well. I'm really looking forward to training and maybe competing with him if we show the potential.

We're working on getting a quicker down from him, since he's a little slow sometimes. More often than not he half lays down, or lays down and immediately gets back up. We are making extra sure that we only mark and reward when he does a complete down.

But the real problem is teaching him to sit. I know I know, the easiest command ever. But the problem is that he's always sitting! If we call him, he comes to us and sits. If we have a toy or treat, he also comes and sits right in front of us. Which is great, but when he tell him to sit outside of these siatuations it obviously doesn't work. Ie he sits before we feed him, but wouldn't sit before we open the door and walk in. He's always done this, and I know it's our fault for not changing it early on. We just always liked that he would sit instead of jump like other young dogs.

So since he's already sitting... does anyone have any ideas on how to command/reward a sit behavior? I feel like this should be easy, but I just can't think of anything. I know we should have a solid sit and down anyways, but it's especially important if we're going to be competing in any sport. Thanks in advance!

If you can lengthen the down, you can ask for a sit from the down. Train stand also, so you can toggle between the three.

You can ask for a sit after a recall, too.

The toggle is a good point, making sure that you don't fall into a pattern.

Thanks to you both! I never thought of having him sit from a down. I knew I was making it more complicated than it was. He did very well with the downs so far today so I should be able to do the sit and stand pretty soon.

Another thing... Our trainer said she likes training with toys rather than treats because some dogs have a hard time coming off of treats. Conan puts more value on some of his toys though and tends to not be able to focus as well on training. I've read that happens though and have been switching between treats and toys and using the toys that have less value to him. In the past this always seemed to make it easier to introduce new behaviors. If I vary the rewards, is he likely to only stick to those?

Thanks again!

 Quote: katie finlay

... Another thing... Our trainer said she likes training with toys rather than treats because some dogs have a hard time coming off of treats. Conan puts more value on some of his toys though and tends to not be able to focus as well on training. I've read that happens though and have been switching between treats and toys and using the toys that have less value to him. In the past this always seemed to make it easier to introduce new behaviors. If I vary the rewards, is he likely to only stick to those?

Thanks again!

Even though you will eventually want to use whatever your dog's currency is, I think that food is by far the easiest to reward with quickly. I would always start with food. JMO. In this DVD http://leerburg.com/219.htm there is even a chapter on working with a dog who has a lower food drive (which seems not to be a concern with yours).

" ... have been switching between treats and toys and using the toys that have less value to him. In the past this always seemed to make it easier to introduce new behaviors. If I vary the rewards, is he likely to only stick to those?"

I'm not clear on what this means.

I do know that phasing out the every-time mark/reward is pretty simple. I do it gradually, and end up with always still giving random marker/rewards. Like the mixed bag of food rewards, this creates kind of a slot-machine mentality in the dog that actually increases enthusiasm and interest. JMO.

I'm in the same idea with you as food. I haven't watched that DVD but I do have it in my list. Thanks!

And I meant that if I do one training session with food, and another with a toy, and another with a different toy or food, etc. will I end up finding it hard to get him to work without any sort of tangible reward in the long run? I've always thought it better to vary the rewards so training doesn't get boring, but what do I know? Thought it would be worth asking. Does that make sense? Sorry for the confusion!

 Quote: katie finlay

.... And I meant that if I do one training session with food, and another with a toy, and another with a different toy or food, etc. will I end up finding it hard to get him to work without any sort of tangible reward in the long run? I've always thought it better to vary the rewards so training doesn't get boring ....

No, none of that will make it harder to gradually phase down tangible rewards (later).

If you are having a bit of a problem with him losing focus when he is mid-session and presented with a toy, you might want to vary the food for now instead of varying from food to toy (yet).

A foody dog and a mixed bag of rewards does not get boring, I can pretty much guarantee. If it ever did (and I doubt that day will come) you could simply time the training sessions for just before dinner.

What I mean by a mixed bag is this:
http://leerburg.com/736.htm *
with different food rewards in it. I always get the first four here http://leerburg.com/treat.htm (there is good reason for their designation as "Leerburg Favorites" because they are not junk food, they are tiny in size, and you can choose among them for soft chewies or crispy crunchies.) The Grizzly Nu treats are a little bigger, but I still get them too because of the great ingredients and because they can be a good special reward for a dog (like one of mine) who loves that salmon smell.

By "special reward," I mean that not only do I vary the food items, but I also increase the desirability or size (like jackpotting) for, say, compliance under great distraction, or working through a complicated chain of steps.

Added to the LB treats, I throw in tiny bits of cheese, tiny bits of cooked meat, or anything else that I have handy and I know the dogs love.

I use only real food (as opposed to stuff from other sources with corn in top position on the ingredient list) because I don't want to care how many rewards I go through in a day. I count them as part of the food.

*You'll love this bag. It snaps open and shut very easily, you can wear it in front or back, you can put the whole thing in the 'fridge if you have cooked foods in it, and I found out recently that the whole thing can be tossed into the washer with a towel and it comes out great.

I definitely need to get one of those bags! We just started marker training last week and it would really help (even with normal training I'm sure it would help). I'll order one. Thanks! I've been looking at the articles and DVDs so far and haven't really checked out much of the tools for training.

I think food will be the best way with him too. I know every trainer is different, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going down a horrible direction using food instead of toys. Maybe she's just had some problems in the past with students and using food for their dogs.

Those treats look good too. It's great to have healthy choices. We have seen the Zuke's at our local pet supply (my boyfriend especially liked them because he, too, is from Durango, CO; apparently a truly middle of nowhere town). We will definitely try them out. How are they calorie wise? We are trying to get Conan to lose some weight because he's getting a little pudgy around the waist. We recently switched him to Orijen and are still getting used to the difference in portion size for him. Even then, we have no problem bumping up his exercise. Lord knows he can't get enough of it! We were actually surprised he slept for a good hour after getting home from herding!

Thanks again, I really appreciate it !

 Quote: Katie Finlay

I. How are they calorie wise? We are trying to get Conan to lose some weight because he's getting a little pudgy around the waist.

I would guess that it's probably safe to consider them one-for-one as a piece of kibble.

But the best thing (always) with weight management is to watch the dog's body shape, looking down from above for the dreaded pickle shape and looking at the profile from ground level to check on the tuck-up behind the rib cage. (In an older dog, you also need to watch the neck and shoulders, where seniors sometimes start to pack on some extra poundage.)


e.t.a. The VERY best thing when you're managing the weight of a chubbo is frequent weighing, if possible.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (09/28/2009 07:20 PM)
Edit reason: eta

Thanks, that's good to know! When we use food we generally do it at meal time and have him eat his dinner that way. We've been keeping an eye on him and he looks okay, but when we touch his sides he's gotten a little bit more meat than normal above his ribs. We took into account that Orijen is a lot richer than other kibbles but it looks like we didn't measure it well enough. We're not too worried we just take his weight seriously because of the problems it can cause, especially for a long backed dog. We don't have a scale but should probably get one. There's one at our local pet suppy store for everyone to use but I'm hesitant to bring him there because I've run into a few dogs that, while on leash, were definitely not under the control of their owners. I just like to be extra careful I guess.