My loveable 6 month male GSD used to be so good with all his command. We recently noticed that his "Sits" and most of all his "Downs" are getting slower by a LOT. His recall was never the quickest, but that seems to be suffering a bit too. Since he just turned 6 months on Christmas, we have not used anything but food and praise.

How can I get his "Sits" and "Downs" quick like they used to be??

Any advice?
Thanks!
David C

You've got to be the detective and analyze what has changed in the training that has caused his change in behavior. I'll throw out a few ideas - changes in the dog: have you had his hips prelimmed, is he getting overweight, has his food drive dropped off noticeably as he gets older, is he bored with your food? Changes in you: did you inadvertently cause the problem by continuing to reward even when the performance was substandard or below his norm? Did you repeat commands or cheerlead when he was slow, thinking it would speed him up, so he now thinks this is what you want? What IS your reaction when he gives you a very slow sit or down - do you still reward, do you end the opportunity for reinforcement (break off after his window of opportunity to perform has closed and come back to it after a moment and try again for a satisfactory performance), do you encourage, prompt, lure, jackpot in the hopes of prompting faster responses?

Left out another common one - are you constantly increasing the criteria, asking for longer and longer duration sits and downs so that the food is no longer WORTH the effort required, or are you unpredictable in your durations?

Great advice, Lee! In one paragraph, you make tons of good points that are easy to forget.

When you asked if the durations were unpredictable....are you suggesting that this would be a desirable training habit? (I do)

Yup, I'm a HUGE advocate of variable reinforcement in every facet of my training.

OK...after re-reading it I guessed as much. Your past two posts were an excellent summary of many 200 page dog training books!

My heart still aches for that 'bama coonhound. What a funny little rascal...wish I coulda taken him home.

I'll have Orv Story send you one of those Bama rottweilers....er, sorry...coonhounds. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

First of all, Lee, I can't thank you enough. Between my two dogs, my GSD has always been the strongeset at OB and it really pains me that he's suffering at his forte. We didn't know what to do, and it was getting very frustrating. We didn't get on for his sake until we got some good advice.


Have you had his hips prelimmed?
No, we were going to wait until he was a bit older. He doesn't show any signs of pain or discomfort when he sits or lays down.

Is he getting overweight?
No, although he's growning very fast, we limit his food a bit to keep him in check.

Has his food drive dropped off noticeably?
No, definitely not. He still walks around anxiously when we are preparing the food and he gives his attention readily for food. Its just carrying out his orders that is slow.

He bored with your food?
I don't think so, he gobbles it up feverishly.

Did you inadvertently cause the problem by continuing to reward even when the performance was substandard or below his norm?
Definite maybe. What I think happened was because we started out teaching him his commands during feeding time (we hand feed and train), when he was a bit slow we ignored it. I mean, you can't not feed him (can you)?

Did you repeat commands or cheerlead when he was slow, thinking it would speed him up?
Definite maybe. I remember that we were supposed to move toward giving the command only once. But we STILL repeat ourselves. I guess its hard for us to understand that the dog knows the command (which in retrospect I'm sure they do), and has heard us.

What IS your reaction when he gives you a very slow sit or down - do you still reward?
Yes. Sometimes I have him redo it, but its rarely much faster.

Do you end the opportunity for reinforcement?
No. Once again, maybe I should move away from training while feeding. I guess its worked so well so far that we didn't suspect that it may cause a long term problem. My other pup (Finnish Spitz) still rockets into her commands during feeding.

Do you encourage, prompt, lure, jackpot in the hopes of prompting faster responses?
Not really.

Are you constantly increasing the criteria?
Yes .. well we are using the Leerburg OB tape and its all Time/Duration/Distraction. If we are varying the time, its not by design.

Okay - I look over the answers and I think its looking like its the handler and not the dog. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> So what should I do??

- Should I move training just to the beginning of feeding when their drive is the highest?

- Should I move away from training while feeding altogether?

- He's 6 months now, should I move toward corrections for commands he knows? Will this show him down more?

- Should I move towards "Jackpots Only" (fast=lots of reward, slow=none)?

Waiting most eagerly,
David C

Ok, couple things...it does sound like handler issues. I personally would do training at different times, not just at mealtime for three reasons: if he's getting his whole meal during that training session, it's probably a long session that's too much for him to stay motivated and focused on. Second, I don't like the constraints that you are feeling about NEEDING to feed him his daily ration. Third, dogs need to generalize the commands to different situations, so you should be mixing up where and when you do obedience so that he learns to respond under all situations and not just at dinner time in his own kitchen.

" we are using the Leerburg OB tape and its all Time/Duration/Distraction. If we are varying the time, its not by design."

I'm not familiar with the tape, but this sounds like you are steadily increasing the difficulty of the duration exercises (sit, down, etc). If so, change this immediately, as this by itself could be a major cause of your problem. If you knew that every time you were asked to do something for your wife, she was going to demand more and more and more from you each time, you'd get slower and slower answering her call for help until finally you turned a deaf ear. Same with the dog. He should never be able to predict when the reward will come or how long you will ask him to work. You can add duration, but do it interspersed with several short duration ones. And when you are doing a longer duration sit/down, be sure to return to the dog and give him food while he continues to hold the position. So if it's a one minute down, you return to the dog, praise, and feed in position at least 3 times during that minute.

To improve his speed, use only ONE criteria for rewarding him: speed. No duration, just speed. With some extra special treats readily available, ask for a sit or down. One command only. If he hasn't offered it in 1.0 - 1.5 seconds, just break away from him quickly, with a 'whoops, time's up, you missed it'. Ignore him for 15-20 seconds, then give him another opportunity to earn his reward. Don't lower your standard and give in to a slow one. Not rewarding usually increases motivation thru frustration, just as long as your tone of voice and body language don't get negative and scolding. Be sure you stay upbeat, just laugh at him if he's slow. It may take several tries, even possibly a couple sessions before you get one that meets your criteria, but when you do, instantly reward/release. Don't ask for him to hold it. After a few successes, he'll learn the new criteria; then you have to be vigilant that you don't backslide and start rewarding subpar work. Keep your sessions short, enthusiastic, and varied, and I would do several shorter sessions as opposed to one long session at dinner time.